Salvation

DHK wrote:

Talk about context once again you are being somewhat selective don't you think? You didn't even finish the scripture above! Let's look at the full scripture and it's context shall we?

(Phil 3:10 KJV) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.


Being MADE conformable unto his death; and so somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Did you purposely leave out the ending of the scripture so as to not confuse us Catholics with the word "attain" or how about the following verse:

Phil 3:12
12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Good thing you left this out. It certainly appears that Paul certainly did not beleive in OSAS, otherwise what is he straining ahead towards, what goal is he pressing toward? A tin crown to be proud of and lord over those in heaven who just so happen to be the also ran?!

The context concludes with;

15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16Only let us live up to what we have already attained. 17Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. 18For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. 20But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.



I too hope God will make these things clear for you as you mature.

 

I don't follow your point here. "Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord."
Heb.11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
--Everything Noah did, he did out of faith. He was saved by his faith in God, not because of his works. His works were just the product of his faith.
Concerning the Catholics on this board agreeing with one another, is another matter. Mental assent to a catechism and the practical living of one's faith are two different things. You can say that salvation is by grace all you want. You can jump up and down and yell it from the treetops. But if in the practice of your faith you demonstrate that you believe the opposite what good will it do you. Grace and works are mutually exclusive.
We believe that salvation is by grace and the grace of God alone, and to be accepted by faith, and faith alone. You believe in neither.
In John 19:30, Jesus dying on the cross, cried out, "It is finished!" The work of salvation was finished. The price for sin had been paid. Atonement had been made. He had finished the work for which he had come. All that remained now was the resurrection, his final conquering act of victory. It is finished means that there is nothing that you can do to add to the work of Christ on the cross. He paid the penalty for our sin. He made atonement. You cannot add one thing to that. It is absolute heresy to even think that the work of baptism is part of the great work of salvation that Christ provided with the shedding of His blood. Yet you have the audacity to say: "Look what I have done! Look what I have done! See I have been baptized. Look what I have done! I have been baptized Lord! I helped pay for those sins too!" That is what baptismal regeneration is.
It is man saying that he has a part in the salvation that God has provided for us. The Catholic Church says that baptism is necessary for salvation. Christ says that He paid it all. Which do you believe? I believe Christ.

Salvation in the Catholic church is entirely by works, not of grace, and not of faith.
DHK

 

Talk about context once again you are being somewhat selective don't you think? You didn't even finish the scripture above! Let's look at the full scripture and it's context shall we?

(Phil 3:10 KJV) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.


Being MADE conformable unto his death; and so somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Did you purposely leave out the ending of the scripture so as to not confuse us Catholics with the word "attain" or how about the following verse:

Phil 3:12
12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Good thing you left this out. It certainly appears that Paul certainly did not beleive in OSAS, otherwise what is he straining ahead towards, what goal is he pressing toward? A tin crown to be proud of and lord over those in heaven who just so happen to be the also ran?!

The context concludes with;

15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16Only let us live up to what we have already attained. 17Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. 18For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. 20But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.



I too hope God will make these things clear for you as you mature. </font>[/QUOTE]And your point in all of this is what Stephen?
Read it to yourself again more carefully. Paul is striving NOT FOR SALVATION. He already has that. He is striving for reward, for the prize that is set before Him. It is the reward that he is speaking of, not salvation. This has nothing to do with salvation.
DHK

 

DHK:

Your premise is faulty because you say you receive the gift of eternal life when you are “saved” in the past tense, but Holy Scripture says you receive it if you endure to the end. I will believe Holy Scripture. Grace however is what we have now, the life of Christ within us.

Again you have unbiblical premises: You say it is not talking about eternal life. The Gospel is about eternal life. Paul is writing this to Timothy. He is saying:

If we have died with him, then we shall live with Him.
If we persevere, then we shall reign with Him.
If we disown Him, then He will disown us.
If we are faithless, he is faithful still,
For he cannot disown his own self.

God cannot disown His own self. Yet, we can separate ourselves from Him. Our own freewill can cause us to disown Him or deny Him. God is faithful, yet we can throw our salvation away.

God Bless

P.S.

Do Baptists believe their body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in them? Do they believe the spirit of Christ dwells within them? I just wonder if this is what Baptists believe.

 

What is this prize that Paul is talking about?

“For I am already being poured out like a libation, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have competed well; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith. From now on the crown of righteousness awaits me, which the Lord, the just judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, to all who have longed for his appearance.” 2 Timothy 4:6-8

This is the same race Paul refers to in Corinthians and his fear for disqualification. The crown of righteousness, that is the crown of eternal life, the prize that everyone is awarded if they keep the faith and long for the Lord. If it was just a little medallion you get after you are in heaven then that means EVERYBODY would get one because EVERYBODY who goes to heaven keeps the faith thus there is no necessity to compete for any prize.

“O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid profane babbling and the absurdities of so-called knowledge. By professing it, some people have deviated from the faith. Grace be will all of you.” 1 Timothy 6:20-21

DHK, how is it possible to deviate from the faith and guard what has been entrusted to us since we have no power to guard it?

Scripture speaks loud enough for me
"But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved." Matthew 24:13

“Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, it will have great recompense.” Hebrews 10:35 So we shouldn't throw away our hope because we will get a little reward at the end? Again, I already have eternal life and I would rather live in hedonism until my death because I really don't need any extra bonuses.

"Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned." John 15:6
DHK, how is possible not to remain? Oh, this being burned is just that we won't get our little prize but we still have the ticket into heaven.

"Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability." 2 Peter 3:17
Yeah, you can fall from your security so you won't get the little prize, but hey big deal, you still got the big one because God doesn't care if you reject him later in life, you have that little mark on your forehead that says "saved" and that is good enough for Him. Why all this vain preaching? He is talking to saved people, they don't need to be forewarned because it is impossible to fall away.

 

Justified Saint: You first have to understand all that scripture you are bring up is not about salvation or eternal life.

 

DHK:

I believe this 100%, it is also the teaching of the Catholic Church.

By the way, do you think Noah saved himself and family from death when he built the ark and survived? Or was it God who saved them? Pretty important since this corresponds to Baptism according to 1 Peter Chapter 3.


God Bless

 

Again you have unbiblical premises: You say it is not talking about eternal life. The Gospel is about eternal life. Paul is writing this to Timothy. He is saying:

If we have died with him, then we shall live with Him.
If we persevere, then we shall reign with Him.
If we disown Him, then He will disown us.
If we are faithless, he is faithful still,
For he cannot disown his own self.

God cannot disown His own self. Yet, we can separate ourselves from Him. Our own freewill can cause us to disown Him or deny Him. God is faithful, yet we can throw our salvation away. </font>[/QUOTE]That's funny. I quote the Bible and you say I have unbiblical references??

"The gospel is about eternal life." That is correct.
"Paul is writing this to Timothy." That is also correct.
Now realize that Second Timothy is a pastoral epistle written by Paul to instruct Timothy in the affiars and matters concering the operation of the local church. Timothy was already well acquainted the gospel. Paul wasn't explaining the gospel to Timothy, now was he? He may have been giving him some encouragement to continue and not to be discouraged. Read Second Timothy carefully. Paul was like a father to Timothy. There in the fourth chapter (this is the last book he ever wrote), he tells Timothy that his life is about to end. He is about to be tried and executed. Death is certain. He writes to Timothy giving him some words of encouragement. He is not wrtiting to Timothy to try to get him saved.
DHK

 

I believe this 100%, it is also the teaching of the Catholic Church.
</font>[/QUOTE]No, you don't believe this. Neither is it the position of the Catholic Church. In fact when I posted it previously, you called it "a faulty premise." Why do you change your tune now?
DHK

 

DHK:

Not unbiblical references, I said unbiblical premises. But, then again you know that. You had said that this was not about eternal life. This is your unbiblical premise. You now say it is about eternal life, so your premise has changed.

I never said Paul was trying to get Timothy “saved”. He is encouraging Timothy to take strength from the grace which is in Jesus Christ and to persevere to the end , then they will reign with Him. The things which Timothy has heard from Paul, he is to “commend to faithful men who will teach others”. Sacred Tradition is being passed on by word of mouth here. This is a living example of Sacred Tradition at work.


God Bless

 

DHK:

Yes, I do believe this, and yes it is the teaching of the Catholic Church. I have already told you exactly what your false premise was, but I will repeat it for you.

But then you already know that. You are trying to make it look like I am denying Holy Scripture and not your spin on it. Since you are not answering my questions, and are accusing me of not knowing what I believe, I have to conclude that this dialog is deteriorating to the point where we should stop.

God Bless

 

Not unbiblical references, I said unbiblical premises. But, then again you know that. You had said that this was not about eternal life. This is your unbiblical premise. You now say it is about eternal life, so your premise has changed.</font>[/QUOTE]Kathryn, if you read through the thread my "premise" was solely based on just two verses of Scripture: Romans 6:23 and Eph. 2:8,9. I quoted those and you called that a faulty premise, whereas it was Scripture that you were calling a faulty premise. For the Scripture clearly says in those references that the gift of God is eternal life, and you deny that.

Your implication was as much. You said he was speaking of the gospel in those verses when he was not. He was encouraging Timothy in the faith. Context dictates the same. You are trying to force your theology into verses that say something entirely different other than what they were meant to mean. Neither were they teaching Oral Tradition. Paul was urging Timothy to teach faithful men the things that he had taught him. What had he taught him? He didn't teach him oral tradition, not in the sense you are implying. There was no oral tradition at that time to teach. He taught him the word of God, that Word that we now have in the Bible. He expounded on it for him, explained it to him, much like a preacher does for his flock today. That is not oral tradition. To teach Oral Tradition from any of these verses is a grave fallacy and a misinterpretation of Scripture. In is not sound exegesis.
DHK

 

DHK:

On the contrary I have stated that I fully believe the gift of God is eternal life. I have also told you this is a teaching of the Catholic Church.

I called your interpretation a faulty premise, and another time I called your other statement that all the scriptural evidence I present… has nothing to do with eternal life a false premise. Your premise is that all the Scripture I present has nothing to with salvation or eternal life…..it may be talking about “Christian living” but not about salvation or eternal life.
This is a false premise that I am unwilling to accept.

Once again your premise is that none of this has anything to do with salvation or eternal life.

I said: He is encouraging Timothy to take strength from the grace which is in Jesus Christ and to persevere to the end, then they will reign with Him.

Paul has already acknowledge just before that the Holy Spirit is dwelling in both of them and he is encouraging Timothy to guard through the Holy Spirit the treasure which has been entrusted to him.

2 Timothy 1:14
Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.

He goes on to talk about Phygelus and Hermogenes.

2 Timothy 1:15
You are aware of the fact that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes.

2 Timothy 1:16
The Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains;

2 Timothy 1:17
but when he was in Rome, he eagerly searched for me and found me--

2 Timothy 1:18
the Lord grant to him to find mercy from the Lord on that day--and you know very well what services he rendered at Ephesus.

Yes, context is everything. Fits right into the need to persevere in the faith.

“ The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.” 2 Timothy 2:2

What happened to these “things” that Timothy heard from Paul? Did he entrust these to faithful men who would be able to teach others also? Yes. This is Sacred Tradition. That is why the Catholic Church has the correct understanding of what the Gospel meant. Holy Scripture itself teaches here that these teachings must be passed on. This is what is missing with Sola Scriptura….the correct understanding of the Scriptures.

I will ask again. Do Baptists believe they are temples of the Living God? Paul and Timothy here believe that. They believe this is Christian living….the life of God within them. Is this the understanding of Baptists. This is the teaching and understanding that Timothy would have passed down to faithful men who would then teach others.

God Bless

[ July 15, 2003, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

I disagree with much of what you said, but I will answer this question for you in this post.

1Cor.6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Yes, every believer is the temple of the Holy Spirit, as the Bible teaches here in these verses. The Holy Spirit comes and dwells in us at the time of salvation, not at the time of baptism. Baptism has nothing to do with it.

Rom.8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

If you do not have the Spirit of God dwelling in you, you do not even belong to Christ. The implication is that you belong and are in the family of the devil, not the family of God. And that is precisely the reason that a man must be born again (of his own free will), not as an infant who has no free will.

What did Paul teach to Timothy. Timothy was the Pastor of the church at Ephesus. You can find out what he taught them in Acts 20:

DHK

 

DHK:
Yes, those are things he taught Timothy. He would have taught Timothy to contend earnestly for the faith. He also would have explained the gospel and as you previously said expounded on it as a preacher would. This letter to Timothy is very clear that Timothy is to entrust what he has heard to faithful men who will be able to teach others. It is this clear understanding from the Apostles that belongs to Sacred Tradition. (As opposed to the understanding of someone who studies the bible alone, on his or her own, 2000 years later looking for inspiration from the Holy Spirit for what it all means.)

“ The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.” 2 Timothy 2:2

God Bless

P.S.
I am glad you believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Although you know the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus Christ at His baptism to witness and testify that He is the Son of God. This is what happens at our Baptism...we are born again and become children of God. It all corresponds to the flood and Noah and the Ark, and how God saves us by Grace.

 

DHK, let's say all those verses which destroy the concept of OSAS aren't talking about salvation, which they are in fact dealing with salvation. You have yet to demonstrate why there is any necessity at all to place doubt on the Christian life since it is impossible not to live the Christian life if one is a believer in OSAS, for anyone in heaven is one who has had faith and from then on has lived like a Christian for that is the product of faith. For as surely as salvation is 100% guaranteed so is living the Christian life and bearing fruit!

 

First, there is nothing that destroys the theology of OSAS.
There are only those that don't understand salvation.
How can I expect you to understand OSAS, when you don't understand what it is to be "born again,"
or that "salvation is by grace through faith, and not of works."
Wlhen such basic concepts are not understood, I don't expect OSAS would be understood.

First.
2Cor,5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
--A saved life is a changed life. Old things are passed away. All things are become new. Most of you don't understand this. I don't have to worry about "enduring to the end." My life has been changed by the Holy Spirit of God. Old things are passed away. The Holy Spirit has dramatically changed my life. The passage about enduring doesn't even apply to salvation. You have it all wrong. Old things are passed away. I don't endure. It is not a "dour" life that I live. I rejoice in the Lord. I don't have to endure. You make it sound that the one has to endure and struggle and climb and fight in order to get to heaven. That's wrong, and the Bible never teaches that. Once saved: old things are passed away; all things are become new--I am a new creature in Christ. I don't struggle to get into Heaven. Heaven, eternal life, and salvation are already given to me. I don't worry about that any longer. I know that if I were to die this minute that I would go straight to Heaven as surely as if I had already been there a thousand years. I have this assurance of my salvation. I have eternal life.

Second
You have a warped view of "born again." You cannot figure this out for yourself from the Bible. You are bound by your Catholic catechism, and tradition, etc. Of course there is an element of pride in defending the Caholic church as well, so even if you could see that the Catholic position was wrong you would probably never admit it.

John 3:1-7
3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Except a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God. It is absolutely necessary to be born again. Note, there is not a single mention of baptism in this entire chapter, much less these few verses.
There are two types of births: one of the flesh and one of the spirit (verse 6)
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.
Every one is born of the flesh; but not everyone is born of the Spirit. How then, is one born of the Spirit?
The Holy Spirit of God must actively come and indwell the person. This can only happen when a person admits that he is a sinner and comes to Christ, and asks him out of his own free will to come and save him. The the Holy Spirit comes and indwells him.
But what does verse 5 mean?
"Except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
There are only two agents by which one is able to be born again--two and only two. It does not say baptism here; it says water. That is an important thing to keep in mind. Sometimes the Bible uses water in symbolic ways. Even if you inserted baptism in here you would be saying that water would be symbolic of baptism. But that is not the case, when you study more of Scripture.

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
--The Word, like water, is a cleansing agent. Water is symbolic of the Word. The Word cleanses, as does water.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
--We are begotten or born again with the Word of truth. There are only two agents by which a man is born again. The word and the spirit.

1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--We are born again of the Word of God. There are only two agents by which one is born again: the Word and the Spirit.
Thus water is symbolic of the Word. Baptism has nothing to do with it.

There is nowhere in the Bible of any infant ever being baptized. Infant baptism is just plain wrong. The only person that can be born again is one that can do so out of his own free will.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
When you receive Christ by faith, you are born of God. You must be born again. Once you are born into God's family, He will never disown you. This is a concept you have difficulty in understanding.
DHK

 

You still have completely avoided the question DHK, what was I expecting though?

Beat around the bush and drop bombs, that is the name of the game, eh? You continue to deliberately misrepresent Catholic doctrine and make your leaps of logic.

Luther said it quite right, "To be a Christian, you must pluck out the eye of reason."

OSAS has removed any and all the eyes of reason.

 

I haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about. I reread your post. There isn't a question!
DHK