The Rapsure?

Not the whole "tribulation" is God's wrath. "wrath" isn't mentioned until the 6th seal (Rev 6:16), which when you parallel the seals to Matt 24 (which I won't do here, it's easy enough to do on your own, but note: compare Rev 6:12-17 with Matt 24:29-30), tells us this is after the trib.

But regarding "wrath" in general, God's wrath against the unrighteous does not require the righteous to be removed first (the Israelites in Egypt *during* the plagues, Rom 1:18, etc.) Yes, there are many distinctions in terms of the purpose for various events and actions, who is in focus in a particular passage, etc, but such distinctions do not justify creating the separations in terms of time and place that pretrib requires.

I agree.

 

Someone has said, 'If Jesus has not returned to the earth, then His work is still incomplete.'

I know what you mean in the sense that you stated your point, but in another sense, if Christ's work was incomplete, when Christians die they could not go to Heaven. Scripture verifies that before our body is cold and stiff, we are with the Lord. [II Cor. 5:8-9; Philippians 1:23] And as a side bar, this truth makes Purgatory, a superfluous, errant concept in theology.

 

The question was asked, 'How do we know that the Great Tribulation will last approximately seven years?' We believe that the first 3 ½ years of this future event after the rapture will bring on the entering of the antichrist, the man of sin. [II Thess. 2:3] He will sit in the Temple claiming that he is God. The phenomenon of his grand entrance will come about because of a peace treaty that he will encourage and dominate. After his clever deception He will after this 3 ½ years become a brutal tyrant.

Daniel chapter 12 speaks of the Great Tribulation. Verse 11 points to the exact 3 ½ years that I suggested. The reinstitued sacrifice in the rebuilt Temple [II Thess. 2:4; Daniel 12:11; Revelation 11:1] will end during the mid-Great Tribulation era. [Daniel 12:27b] Also, a terrible abomination in the mind of the Israelites will also take place. Some think it might be a huge portrait of the antichrist placed in the Temple. [12:27c]

The three and one half years is pin pointed also in Revelation 11:2 & 3. You can compute in on your calculator, plus all the additional references that I use in speaking of a time framework.

The two witness of Revelation 11:4 will probably be Elijah and Enoch. Why? Because they never died and God is going to enter them again on the stage of human history. Jesus makes an unequivocal promise that death is appointed unto all human beings. [Hebrews 9:27] His Word says, 'And as it is appointed to men once to die . . . ' If God were not to bring Elijah and Enoch through the valley of the shadow of death, our Lord would be in disagreement with His statement in Hebrews nine.

I hope this Scriptural post will give you some insight into why there will be a seven year Great Tribulation period of time. By way of conclusion, Daniel 12:11; under the Old Covenant, and Revelation 11; 12:6; 13:5and twelve verse six under the 'better covenant' of grace points to this unprecedented future event.

Revelation 11:13 and Zechariah 14:1-5 especially verse four refers to the Second Coming of Christ where He sets His feet down on the Mount of Olives. Please, not in I Thess. 4:17 He only comes down to the cloud level, not to the ground level. In the rapture Jesus comes for His saints; at the Second Coming seven years later, He comes with all His saints. [Zechariah 14:5f; Revelation 19:14]

In Revelation 11:13 there is an earthquake, murdering of Israelites, and Zechariah 14:4 this same earthquake will rearrange the topography of Jerusalem and the Jews will experience death and rape in their city. In the Second Coming there is the Lord's judgment on sinners; at the rapture or the gathering of the saints into Heaven, there was hope and peace for the Thessalonian Church [I Thess. 4:18] and that hope and comfort is resident in our hearts today as Christians.

 

If you are referring to my question, I'm sorry for not being clearer. I already understand the pretrib understanding about the 70th "week". What I should have added to my question is "Again, where is this "seven years later" stated in scripture *as being after the rapture*?

Hmmm. Earlier you said this passage teaches we are raptured to "heaven". This passage does not say where Christ goes after he gathers us in the clouds, but I assume he goes somewhere (as opposed to just sitting in those clouds for a while). So since the passage does not say where he goes afterward, he can come to earth just as easily as returning to heaven, and the verse would still be true and applicable.

AGAIN, he can do both at the same time. Even in pretrib this is evident: 1 Thess 4:14 says he brings saints WITH him. And even in pretrib, after the tribulation he comes FOR "trib" saints.

No rapture passage ever mentions "heaven", only that we will be with Christ whereever he is. In amill and posttrib/premill, this is the earth.

I agree. The hope is in the *event* of being gathered to Christ. Not the *timing* of that event.

 

Thank you for proving my point about wretched exegesis and doing verbal gymnastics to try to avoid the literal meaning of the words of our Lord.

You are taking that quote ENTIRELY OUT OF CONTEXT of what St. Peter was saying in 2 Peter 3. When the Lord talks, unless it is specified that He is speaking in a parable, He uses our language and the words mean exactly what they mean.

Well, let's see if this is true. Using the Bible to understand the Bible, look at Matthew:

Mt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Whooooops. WHERE were the angels at the Transfiguration? Where was the beginning of the Judgement Day? Where was the resurrection? NONE of that happened, therefore, your assertion, as cute as it is, is entirely false and your own opinion.

Furthermore, Jesus didn't say that those standing with Him would see a representation or type of His coming. He said they would see His coming. And it did not happen at the Transfiguration. End of story.

Brian --

No, I am most certainly NOT a "full preterist". Those people are crazy. They very subtility deny the bodily resurrection for a "spiritualized" resurrection which fits their spiritualized kingdom.

Neither full Preterism nor Premillenialism fits the covenantal framework of our Lord's work with humanity.


Brother Ed

 

2Thess 2:5 This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed for our testimony to you was believed.

Their errors in understanding the Bible view of history costs them. But it also allows them to ignore the part that the RCC played in history as described in the Bible. So possibly they view it as a "trade off".

In Christ,

Bob

 

#1. ALL prophetic timelines are contiguous in scripture - without exception. That includes the 70 weeks of Daniel. Breaking them up and inserting undefined gaps of time in the middle - destroys their timeline. 70Weeks would make "no sense" in that model.

#2. IF God intended to tell Christians in Matt 24 or Rev 5-15 that they would not be suffering - then in light of the dark ages - He owes Christians an apology. In fact - in Somalia alone He would owe an apology.

The Rapture of 1Thess 4 is the "resurrection of the dead in Christ" these the "righteous" of the resurrection John calls the "First Resurrection" in Rev 20. That resurrection starts the literal 1000 years according to the chapter.

It is plain.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Brian T,

You said, 'Not the whole "tribulation" is God's wrath. "wrath" isn't mentioned until the
6th seal (Rev 6:16), which when you parallel the seals to Matt 24 (which I
won't do here, it's easy enough to do on your own, but note: compare Rev
6:12-17 with Matt 24:29-30), tells us this is after the trib.

But regarding "wrath" in general, God's wrath against the unrighteous does
not require the righteous to be removed first (the Israelites in Egypt
*during* the plagues, Rom 1:18, etc.)

I am saying, that the Great Tribulation will last for seven years. The real rage and wrath will not start until about mid-Tribulation which will be 3 1/2 years after Christ takes His church to Heaven.

The judgements against sinners will start at mid-Tribulation and these judgments start with Revelation chapter six through chapter nineteen. Christians will not go through the Great Tribulation because the Lord has promised us hope and comfort [I Thess. 4:18] as we await His arrival via the trumpet blast. This is what He means when He says that He has ' . . . not appointed us to {His} wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ . . . . comfort yourselves together . . . ' [I Thess. 5:9-11]


The Christian martyrs will be those who miss the rapture. [Rev. 7:14] They will not take the 'mark of the beast' {the antichrist} and will pay with their death in order to be accepted by Jesus above. To take the 'mark' {666} is to become a forever, damned soul.

 

AS A THIEF

Matt 24:37-47
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The context here is not that the Lord's coming will be a secret, but rather a surprise. Just as the world was surprised by the flood, because they did not believe it would happen, so will the world be surprised when Christ returns because they do not believe in Him. Those who were left behind in the flood died, so will those who are left behind when Christ returns. Peter speaks of this.

2 Pet 3:5-12
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Here again, the Lord does come as a thief, but not in secret. It would be hard for the people in the world not to know that the heavens, and the earth were being burned up. Just as those who refused to accept God's salvation through Noah were destroyed by the flood, so those who refuse to accept God's salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ will be destroyed by fire. This event could hardly be kept a secret.


Luke 12:34-42
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Once again, the message here is not that Christ's coming will be a secret, but rather a surprise. The warning is to be ready, so as not to be caught off guard.

1Thes 5:1-4
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Again, those who are awaiting the Lord's return will not be overtaken as by a thief. However, sudden destruction comes upon those who are not ready and waiting upon the Lord.

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 16:15
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

The above scriptures, are all the scriptures in the new testament that use the word thief in regard to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The word secret is not found at all among them. Nor do the above verses present any conclusive statement, or argument to the effect that Christ will return again in secret. However, the word secret is used in the new testament scriptures while addressing the topic of the return of the Lord Jesus Christ. This scripture however, is a warning against believing anyone who says that Christ has returned in secret. We are not to believe this kind of report. Yet, the greatest majority of Christendom, believe the secret rapture theory.

Matt 24:23-27
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Food for thought.

At the time of the Reformation, most of the reformers understood the prophecy of the Antichrist to refer to the great apostate system of Romanism that developed during the Middle Ages. Of course, Rome did not appreciate this interpretation. Please notice Rome's course of action to nullify this interpretation:

"So great a hold did the conviction that the Papacy was the Antichrist gain upon the minds of men, that Rome at last saw she must bestir herself, and try, by putting forth other systems of interpretation, to counteract the identification of the Papacy with the Antichrist.

"Accordingly, toward the close of the century of the Reformation, two of the most learned doctors set themselves to the task, each endeavoring by differnt means to accomplish the same end, namely, that of diverting men's minds from perceiving the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Antichrist in the papal system. The Jesuit Alcasar devoted himself to bring into prominence the preterist method of interpretation,...and thus endeavored to show that the prophecies of Antichrist were fulfilled before the popes ever ruled in Rome, and therefore could not apply to the Papacy.

"On the other hand, the Jesuit Ribera tried to set aside the application of these prophecies to the papal power by bringing out the futurist system, which asserts that these prophecies refer properly, not to the career of the Papacy, but to some future supernatural individual, who is yet to appear, and continue in power for three and a half years. Thus, as Alford says, the Jesuit Ribera, about A.D. 1580, may be regarded as the founder of the futurist system of modern times.

"...It is a matter for deep regret that those who advocate the futurist system at the present day, Protestants as they are for the most part, are really playing into the hands of Rome, and helping to screen the Papacy from detection as the Antichrist." (Revered Joseph Tanner, Daniel and the Revelation, pp. 16,17)

Thus, the whole theory of the secret rapture with its future Antichrist had its origin with the Jesuits in an attempt to take the blame off the Papacy.

The origin of the two-phase coming of Christ has an equally unsavory history. It was not until around the year 1830 that this view began to be taught! In the church pastored by Edward Irving, a Miss Margaret McDonald gave what was believed at the time to be an inspired utterance. She spoke of the visible, open and glorious second coming of Christ. BUT as the utterance continued, she spoke of another coming of Christ, a secret and special coming in which those that were truly ready would be raptured.

It was John Nelson Darby, a Brethren preacher and diligent writer of the time in England, however, who was largely responsible for introducing this new teaching on a large scale. The teaching spread to the United States in the 1850's and 1860's, where it was to receive its biggest boost when Cyrus Ingerson Scofield, a strong believer in Darby's teachings, incorporated it into the notes of his "Scofield Reference Bible" which was published in 1909. Since that time, this view has been widely accepted,often by people who are completely unaware that this was not the belief held by Christians over the centuries. Many fine Christians hold his view today who have never questioned it.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

The "ALL" is determined by the audience to whom the Author was writing. Since ALL of Paul's letters are written to BELIEVING CHRISTIANS, it seems well thought out to believe Paul is saying that BELIEVING CHRISTIANS will be Changed. The "when" is at the discretion of God.

 

1Thess 4 "WE who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with THEM in the air" - the context shows this is the living saints and the resurrected saints.

1Cor 15 "We shall all be changed" - references that same event - and the context is the "WE" that will bear the "image of the heavenly".

1Cor 6 "already" made it clear that the wicked never get eternal life.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Many people who believe in the PreTribulation view of eschatology also believe that a future pope will be the antichrist so the one who said, ' ...It is a matter for deep regret that those who advocate the futurist system at the present day, Protestants as they are for the most part, are really playing into the hands of Rome, and helping to screen the Papacy from detection as the Antichrist." (Revered Joseph Tanner, Daniel and the Revelation, pp. 16,17),' is totally wrong and sound like he knows as much about Scriptural eschatology as I do about rocket science.

I do not know who will be the antichrist; it is my ministry to know Christ better myself and to lead other men and women to the foot of the Cross so they can be joined to Christ by faith.

The Apostle Paul believed that Christ will come for the church before the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming of our Lord. This may have been lost to the Roman Catholic Church during the Dark Ages of their apostasy, but thank the Lord it has been mined out of the Bible by evangelical theologians like Dr. Walvoord a former President of Dallas Theological Seminary.

 

It would be more accurate to say that the Roman Catholic has shrouded ideas like the catching away of the saints to Heaven, the Great Tribulation, the Millenimum, the antichrist and other future important things, by never or almost never using these passages in their Gospel readings in their mass. How long has it been since Catholics have heard a homily on any of these spiritual topics?

Protestantism at least has studied these ideas and have formed them into an end times theology of the way it is going to be as His Providence unfolds. Some denominations have followed the lead of the Catholic Church, unwittingly, and have spiritualized or turned these ideas into symbolic concepts, thus losing the true meaning of the Lord's message to Christians.