The Rapsure?

Downsville · Sep 15, 2003

Hi Kamoroso

Heres one from the old testament when Christ will return with HIS army as a thief in the night.

Joel 2 [1] Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
[2] A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
[3] A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
[4] The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
[5] Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
[6] Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
[7] They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
[8] Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
[9] They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

"ALL" the so called raptsure scriptures point to the Day of the Lord.

Downsville · Sep 15, 2003

Ray
You wrote
The Apostle Paul believed that Christ will come for the church before the Great Tribulation

Where do you find this in scripture?

Dave Bussard · Sep 15, 2003

Ray

Paul believed in the pre-trib rapture? You NEED my 6 month rapture course. You can't go wrong...I won't even charge you.

www.leftbehindwhen.injesus.com

Dave

Ray Berrian · Sep 15, 2003

Dave Bussard you need to read the book "Things To Come" by J. Dwight Pentecost, Th.D. (Zondervan Publishing House) It is a study of everything we need to understand. The book covers 583 pages of truth as it explains the interlocking of all the end time events, plus why they fit where the make sense.

Dave Bussard · Sep 16, 2003

Thanks Ray. I've read most of it, and Walvoord, Lyndsey, LaHaye, etc. They are good men that have studied intensely, but when it comes to the His return their minds are made up beforehand and they have interpreted the scripture with preconceived ideas. But I really do admire Walvord for at least admitting that there is no clear biblical passage that speaks of a pre-trib rapture.

Dave

Ray Berrian · Sep 16, 2003

Dave Bussard,

Long ago I read a book by Hal Lindsey, I think this is his name. I personally don't care for the popular series of books by the man you named with Lindsey. I enjoy reading Drs. Walvoord, Ryrie, Pentecost, Paul Enns, Randall Price, Thomas Ice, Timothy Demy, and some of Jack Van Impe when he does not sensationalize his eschatology.

Do you believe in one last coming of our Lord in which He will judge both the righteous and the unjust ones?

Downsville · Sep 16, 2003

Jack Van Impe? About 20 years ago he claimed that a computer in Belgium was the beast of revelations. It was called the Binary Electrical Accounting Systems Technology.I watch him nowadays when i need a good belly laugh.

Downsville · Sep 16, 2003

More proof- no rapture

THE LAST TRUMPET

1COR.15[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 COR. The LAST trumpet sounds-Thats clear, its the LAST trumpet. The last one.So is it safe to assume that if its the LAST trumpet to be blown and there are trumpets being blown on the DAY OF THE LORD,that the LAST trumpet will be blown on the DAY OF THE LORD.

JOEL 2- trumpets sounding on the Day of the Lord.
explain a pre or mid trib rapture in which the last trumpet sounds(in 1COR.15) and then theres more trumpets on the DAY of the LORD. Its very simple 1COR.15 is speaking of the DAY OF THE LORD.

JOEL 2 [1] Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;[2] A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

Pretty simple.

Ed Edwards · Sep 16, 2003

I read that argument like this:

I don't know what "last" means.
I don't know what "Day of the Lord" means.
-- therefore there is no rapture.

It is a very lame argument.

Dave Bussard · Sep 16, 2003

Ray>>Do you believe in one last coming of our Lord in which He will judge both the righteous and the unjust ones?

Yes. I am not of the silly belief that there is no rapture or that Christ is not coming again or that He already came a second time. I simiply reject the pre-trib part of it. We will not avoid the trib.

Dave

Ray Berrian · Sep 16, 2003

Dave Bussard,

You said, 'We will not avoid the trib.'

Are you building up your faith so you don't take the 'mark of the beast--the 666?' You still might end up in Hell, if you yield to the antichrist. If I were you and believe what you reportedly do, I would be worried!!

Study Revelation 13:15 and through 18. Also, I know you know about Revelation 7:14.

Whether you are a Christian now means nothing; Hell might be your unhappy destination if the preTribulation view is wrong.

Any hope of everlasting life you might now have is superfluous, because you might not like the kind of death the world emperior, the antichrist, might choose for your crying human spirit.

We do not look for an escape scenerio; but thank the Lord the preTribulation rapture is without the least error.

Downsville · Sep 16, 2003

Hi Ed Edwards
You should read about the Day of the Lord if you dont understand what its about. Most every book of the old testament has something about it.In fact thats how i discovered there will be no pre or mid trib rapture. When i saw trumpets sounding on the Day of the Lord, and knowing the Day of the Lord will last only one year. Well the maths was easy when i saw the last trumpet sounding in Cor.15. Have a good one ED.

Downsville · Sep 16, 2003

hi yall

Dead in Christ rise first - FOUR WINDS - gathering the elect(the rapture)

1THES.4[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

And the dead in Christ shall rise first - the raptsurist say this will happen right before the raptsure

EZEK.37 [8] And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.[9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the “FOUR WINDS”, O breath, and breathe upon these slain ,that they may live. The FOUR WINDS... yup, the dead in Christ rise first. So EZEK.37 shows the dead in Christ rising and it also speaks of the “FOUR WINDS”. Some will try and tell you the 4 winds of Ezek.are the gathered tribe of Judah back to Israel,which took place in 1948.Read about the 4 winds in Matt.24 and Mark 13 and you will know thats just not so.

MATT.24[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[32] Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:[33] So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.[34] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.[35] Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.[36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

From the “FOUR WINDS” GOD will gather HIS elect, from one end of heaven to the other . And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. Is this the last trumpet spoken of in COR.15 ? Now those who believe in a pre or mid trib rapture must also believe in a 2nd rapture in which God gathers HIS elect? I dont think HE will gather them by boat or plane, so it must be in the twinkling of an eye at the LAST trumpet.

MARK 13 [23] But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.[24] But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,[25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.[26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Theres the FOUR WINDS again. And this scripture sets the time frame for the “dead in Christ who rise first”. But in those days, after that tribulation. Again, after the tribulation, then the dead in Christ will rise.

Soo.. God will gather HIS elect(in the twinklin of an eye) from the FOUR WINDS after the tribulation and bring them to HIS kingdom for the 1000 year period of rest.

Unless of course, theres 2 "FOUR WINDS" in prophecy?

Dave Bussard · Sep 16, 2003

Ray>Are you building up your faith so you don't take the 'mark of the beast--the 666?'

Uh, yes I am growing and my faith is building. But fortunately I know it is God's strength that holds my salvation and not my own.

Ray>If I were you and believe what you reportedly do, I would be worried!!

Not worried in the slightest. It sounds to me, with your theology, that you should be worried every day of your life. Every trial in life could put you in hell!!

Ray>Whether you are a Christian now means nothing; Hell might be your unhappy destination if the preTribulation view is wrong.

Well, with your view, if the fact that one is a Christian now "means nothing," you could end up in hell even if the pre-trib theory was right.

Ray>We do not look for an escape scenerio;

Yes you do look for an escape. That above coments you made prove it. You think everyone is in danger of going to hell during the trib because it's a trial that they might not be able to handle. Well, LIFE is a tril, and you need to apply the dangers you feel about the trib to everyday life if you desire to be consistant with your belief. If you applied your trib theology to life you would be wanting to escape every day of you life just as you desire to escape the trib. NOW I AM WORRIED!

Ray>but thank the Lord the preTribulation rapture is without the least error.

Do you care to debate one pre-trib teaching at a time for a few days? It might be fun.

Dave

Downsville · Sep 16, 2003

OH NO

im being shunned

MEE · Sep 16, 2003

Ray, hang in there! I'm with you all the way.

PS..just so you won't feel so alone.

MEE

Kamoroso · Sep 16, 2003

Dan 12:1-2 "1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

The scriptures above mention two distinct events. One is the time of trouble, and the other is the resurrection. It is obvious from verse one that God's people are not delivered until the time of trouble has already begun. It is during this time of trouble, that those which sleep in the dust, or graves, shall be awakened unto everlasting life. This is clearly a reference to the resurrection. One must conclude, that it is during the tribulation that Christ returns to deliver His people, and raise His followers that are asleep in their graves.

II Th 2:1-12 "1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Again, the above scriptures clearly state that it is not until after the man of sin is revealed that Christ appears. The world is deceived before Christ's coming by the man of sin. The man of sin is set up by the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. He himself, and all those that are deceived by him will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming.

Mark 13:24-26 "24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory."

Again, it is after the tribulation that Christ appears, not before. Bye for now. Your brother in Christ, Keith.

Ray Berrian · Sep 16, 2003

Brother Dave,

Dave said, 'Uh, yes I am growing and my faith is building. But fortunately I know it is God's strength that holds my salvation and not my own.'

Ray is saying, 'Your above statement sounds good before the brethren, but when the antichrist acts similar to Saddam and his torture methods of punishing and executing people, your flesh might not be as steadfast as your brain makes you think you would be.

Dave said, 'Not worried in the slightest. It sounds to me, with your theology, that you
should be worried every day of your life. Every trial in life could put you in
hell!!

Ray is saying, 'I believe that my soul is secured in Christ's mighty hand. My going to Hell could never, never happen because He paid the price for all of my sins. My salvation is not based on 'performance' {good works}, but rather His intercession for me. [Hebrews 7:25] The power of His intercession secures all of the Lord's people; if not, what do you think He is doing? He surely is not wasting, as it were, His time. When my time comes I will be depending on Him to count me as worthy of Heaven above.

Dave said, 'Whether you are a Christian now means nothing; Hell might be your
unhappy destination if the preTribulation view is wrong.'

Ray is saying, 'Apparently you do not believe that Christ saves to the uttermost or you would not make such a foolish statement as you have above.'

Dave said, Well, with your view, if the fact that one is a Christian now "means nothing,you could end up in hell even if the pre-trib theory was right.

Ray is saying, 'You got me wrong. I was saying those things because I know you don't trust Christ to bring you to everlasting life, all by Himself. For you it depends on keeping up your salvation payments, the comparable--of your good works.

Ray is saying,We do not look for an escape scenerio;

Dave said, Yes you do look for an escape.

Ray is saying, 'Now you can read my mind and heart. Hey, you are an amazing man; I must meet you.

Dave said, 'You think everyone is in danger of going to hell during the trib because it's a trial that they might not be able to handle.'

Ray is saying, 'No I don't think any Christian is in danger of the Great Tribulation or Hell, because we are saved because of Christ and not ourselves. First, all Christians will go to be with the Lord as documented in I Thessalonians 4:17. Only the remaining sinners who will be left on this earth will have to contend with the Antichrist, the False Prophet and Satan Himself. These people are the ones who may buckle under the pressure to take the 'mark of the beast.'

If you applied your trib theology to life you would be wanting to escape every day of you life just as you desire to escape the trib. NOW I AM WORRIED!

Ray is saying, 'I never worry about the Antichrist because my Christ will have loved me enough, along with all other Christians, to bring us into His Presence. [I Thess. 4:17]

Ironically, David, of the O.T. trusted that the Lord would not cast him away as a bushel of rotten apples. In fact the Psalmist David said, 'Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of Thy wings.' Dave Bussard, you are the apple of His eye; He will not stand you in the demonic activity of the future Great Tribulation period. Aren't you fortunate; and all because you believe and trust in Jesus as your Savior.

Ray>but thank the Lord the preTribulation rapture is without the least error.

Dave said, 'Do you care to debate one pre-trib teaching at a time for a few days? It might be fun.

Ray is saying, 'I think this forum allows anyone to debate the issue you present. I will be pleased to debate the rapture and Great Tribulation including what you have to say.'

The idea of non-Pretribulation people suggesting that we are looking for an escape is merely their ploy to try to argue their points. Those who go up in the rapture will not have to endure the atrocities that will happen throughout the entire world. Won't you be surprised?!

What would be the Divine purpose of the Lord to punish His faithful people as they allegedly move through the seven years of the Great Tribulation? The idea of Christians going through the Great Tribulation is unscheduled, unspiritual and unscholarly.

Dave Bussard · Sep 16, 2003

Ray, most of my comments were pertaining to YOUR crazy coment which said:

Whether you are a Christian now means nothing; Hell might be your unhappy destination if the preTribulation view is wrong.

And then in the next message you claimed that I am the one that said it!

Ray said> Dave said, 'Whether you are a Christian now means nothing; Hell might be your unhappy destination if the preTribulation view is wrong.'

And then to top it off, you said:

Ray is saying, 'You got me wrong. I was saying those things because I know you don't trust Christ to bring you to everlasting life, all by Himself. For you it depends on keeping up your salvation payments, the comparable--of your good works.

So let me get this straight, Ray. You said all that garbage because you "know" (ASSUMED) that I "don't trust Christ to bring [me] to everlasting life, all by Himself" ...and then you said a little more goop.

I can tell that there is no sense in debating with you. Your erratic ways make it impossible.

Dave

Ray Berrian · Sep 17, 2003

Dave,

I stand corrected; it was my mistake.

I said, 'Whether you are a Christian now means nothing; Hell might be your
unhappy destination if the preTribulation view is wrong.'

I meant by this that you are a Christian now and you could miss Heaven if the church goes through the Great Tribulation. In this case, you could yield to taking the numer 666. Relax, it was only hypothetical so I could make my point. Dave if your are saved then you are saved forever; you have nothing to do with it because salvation is not obtained by turning in your payment slips to God as you move through this life. In other words, salvation is by Christ alone through grace and not of good works or human effort. As Martin Luther found out, salvation is by faith alone. [Romans 5:1]

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