Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate

What I am not the one having trouble understanding "For God so loved the world, [7] that he gave his only Son"

I really don't see how you can say that they are one in the same person.

 

What I am not the one having trouble understanding "For God so loved the world, [7] that he gave his only Son"

I really don't see how you can say that they are one in the same person.</font>[/QUOTE]What you are not seeing is that I do see what John 3:16 is saying. For God (being a Spirit) so loved the world, the he gave his only begotten "SON" (referring to the flesh) that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Meaning, that God came to Earth, through the blood line of David, through Mary, and became the supreme sacrifice, for the sins of the world.

He didn't send his little boy, as most see it, God give his life. Jehovah of the OT took on himself a "BODY" inorder to shed "HIS BLOOD." A Spirit does not have blood. SEE?

MEE

[ September 13, 2002, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: MEE ]

 

I found this interesting:

5 verses prior to John 3:16 we see this statement by Christ.

Who is the we of this testimony?

Jesus scolded Nicodemus for being a teacher of Israel and still not understanding these things. As a teacher of Isreal, Nicodemus surely knew that it took two witnesses to validate a testimony. If Christ was saying he was only the flesh of the Father why should he even expect Nicodemus to accept this testimony? Especially in light of this verse stated by Christ later on in the book of John.

So, how can it simply be (the Spirit) and the (the flesh) and still be two valid witnesses?

~Lorelei

 

Oneness,

If you can't post today we will have to put it on hold for a bit. Monday my daughter goes in for surgery. We are supposed to be able to come home the next day, but with our previous experiences with hospital stays, I am prepared for a longer visit then that.

~Lorelei

 

I pray all goes well with your daughter's surgery. Depending on the surgery it wouldn't suprise me if she has a very speedy recovery. I had a fiberoptic exploritory/appendectomy and was out two days later and month later I was on rollercoasters.

Mee you have to keep it in context, Jn 1 very plainly states that the Son is not the Father in a flesh suit. Since you only have a flesh suit hanging on the cross there is no sacrafice and you are worshiping a false god.

 

Chemnitz,

I appreciate the thoughts and prayers. I too expect a speedy recovery. It just seems that there is always some little thing that extends our stay. I trust that the Lord has it all in his hands!

Amen! I just love the little flesh suit phrase, but hey why call an apple an orange? If they believe what they say, then to them Jesus was only a flesh suit. Thankfully the Jesus I know was man as well as God. He was the Son of the Father, not merely his flesh.

Keep up the good work!

~Lorelei

 

So if I go into a court of law and testify against you, is my testimony considered as two testimonies against you or one?

Can I tell the judge my Spirit is testifying against this man and so is my flesh?

Nice try, but it doesn't work.

~Lorelei

 

Oneness,

Can you add?

Does one being in two different places actually equal two separate beings?

Is the "God as man" different then the "God as the Eternal Spirit"? Are you now suggesting they are two Gods?

There were at least TWO witnesses needed. One being, in no matter how many places is still ONE being and therefore can only be counted as ONE witness.

Do you have any scripture to back up this statement? Where does the Bible suggest such a thing?

Jesus clearly stated that there were two witnesses. Though Jesus never clearly stated that he WAS the Father, you want me to believe that to be true. Then in defense of that belief, you separate Jesus the man from the God the Eternal Spirit. Which is it? Are they the same or different? You CAN'T have it both ways.

As for other answers, I will humor you in a moment. Just let me remind you, that I have awaited this answer for several months! This answer that you claim is so easy is the first actual attempt you have ever made to address this question. And in doing so, you make a mockery of the law that Christ came to fulfill.

~Lorelei

 

I had to go all the way back to Page 2 of this thread to find where I first answered this question. The only frustration comes from the fact that I know that your attempt to keep addressing this question at me is merely an attempt to try to hide the fact that you have no idea what Gen 1:26 means. Since that verse scares you so much, you try to turn it around so the focus is no longer on you and your doctrine's inability to be in total unity with the Word of God.

Now in order for you to rebut this statement you have to address the post of mine you have completely ignored.

However, we don't separate His name with a characteristic.

This would be properly stated

It just doesn't make sense to use the word and in front of the. I believe you will be hard pressed to find anyone who truly speaks this way.

You also don't use it to separate a name from the same name.

John Doe is not introduces as:

So, let us look at this phrase again:

Which words are titles and which are descriptive?

You stated:

However throughout our conversations you keep telling us that God's name is now Jesus. So which is the name and which is the attribute?

Let us look at the phrase again:

You have two names: God and Jesus Christ
You have two descriptions: Father and Lord.

Your analogy simply doesn't work unless you declare either God or Jesus Christ as nothing other then a description.

You have already determined God to be the main title in this statement:

So, what is the name of God? Is it God, or is it Jesus? If it is Jesus, why did you determine Jesus to be merely a "seperate attributes giveing to one God"?

Now let us look at one quote directly from Paul:

Here we have Jesus Christ listed first and then God the Father. Within this sentence it would be impossible to proclaim that one of the two is merely an attribute of the other. For one has died, and the other has raised him from the dead. Attributes can not take such actions now can they?

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]I answered yours AGAIN. I even gave a demonstration how the word God was often used in this way when speaking within the trinity.

In order for you to say that isn't true, you had to demote Jesus from God's name to merely and attribute.

And still, you have no answer of your own.

So do tell, what does Genesis 1:26 mean?

~Lorelei

 

I study no man's doctrine. I seek the Word of God and it alone for everything that I believe. I would ask you why you so blindly follow your churches doctrine when there are scriptures that blatantly profess otherwise?

Whenever we point out scriptures that are contrary to your beliefs you run and cry and say "I don't know." Yet you believe your doctrine anyway.

I do the opposite. I believe the Bible first.

When have I ever tried to show you this doctrine is true using anything other then the Word of God? Think about it. Trying to argue from this standpoint is just another ploy to take the focus off of the Word of God.

Let us stick to the Bible, shall we?

~Lorelei

 

Why do you keep asking the same questions? How many pages did that thread with this topic go?

In the end we proved that you could not demonstrate anyone actually being baptized in your method either.

"In the name of" means by whose authority one is baptizing in. No where does it ever state what anyone said when someone was baptized. There is no "sample" baptism, just statements that people were baptized.

So again, I am accused of not answering, when in fact I have addressed this several times.

However, let us focus on the actual name aspect. Is Jesus actually the name of the Father and the Spirit? That is the focus.

So where does the Bible say that Jesus is the Father? Where does the Bible say that the Father is a "manifestation" of God?

Before you begin to say that Jesus is one with the Father means the same thing, let me remind you that Jesus also prayed that we would be one with Him too. Surely you don't suggest that we will Be God???

~Lorelei

 

I have answered this before as well, several times. If you believe this IS Jesus then what is the problem?

~Lorelei

 

No, the Father is one person of the one being that IS God.

~Lorelei

 

I haven't the time to look it up. I know revelation says this:

~Lorelei

 

Do you mean people as in humans? Or the persons of God?

I don't have any more insight into heaven then the Bible gives us. I know we are told that Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Father. What we will see how will the One God that exists in three persons be visually looked upon? I have no clue nor do I claim to have access to such mysteries.

Where does it say the Father is the manifestion of the Eternal Spirit of God?

I have not told you that the word person is used in scripture. What I HAVE done is offer scriptures that prove there is a distinct separation.

Now, it's your turn. Answer the verses in question. And please, God gave us His word for a reason, and that reason wasn't to speculate his deity away with statements try to make 1 apple core + that same apple's peel = 2 oranges.

~Lorelei

 

~Lorelei