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Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate
- Thread starter ONENESS
- Start date
Hanging out.
Jesus died on the cross, shed His blood as the atonement and final sacrifice for our sins. That whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life; while those who believe not are already damned, and the wrath of God abideth on them.
Jesus died on the cross, shed His blood as the atonement and final sacrifice for our sins. That whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life; while those who believe not are already damned, and the wrath of God abideth on them.
Don you know what else I like about you? I can spell your name
LOL.Ok Don if you would let me ask you a few more simple questions.
What does believing mean to you?
Does it mean haveing a mental knowledge that God is real and that he came down and died for us?
Does it mean becomeing one with him, trying our best to do what he wants us to do?
Does it mean being obidient to what he says, not living on bread alone but living by every word that God tells us to.
Does it mean that Jesus should do all the cross toten?
In your own words what does believing mean to you?
Don I dont know if you have been following the posts or not but I just want to let you know that I consider you my brother, And I do my best to always lift your name before God when I pray. And I should not even have to say so, but its not for show. You have truely been on my heart and mind for a while now.
In the Name of Jesus, may God richly bless you.
God bless
GrannyGumbo
<img src ="/Granny.gif">
I'm sorry, Brian, if you think I hijacked this thread...I really thought the "debate" was over. Again, I apologize.
The reason I brought the tongues' thing up is because that's what it all boils down to & you can't tell me any different. I live amongst hundreds of onenesses & that's what it always boils down to...
Just this weekend I finally got to see Patrick's son, who's barely 5...first time in many weeks that I've been allowed to see him; I was *shocked* at the change in him!
Of course he's torn between two worlds & is being used as a pawn, but what shook me up the most, besides his agressive mannerism, was when he "rattled" something off & I said, "Sweetie, what did you just say?"
And then he dropped his little shaved head(one of the many "apostolic rules" he must abide by while in his daddy's care,) & mumbled "Me twying to get the Holy Ghost, Maw-Maw."
Do you know how awful that made me feel? Do you know how sick I felt inside? Now you can continue to belittle me or mock me, "all in jest," as you try to pretend, but it is my Saviour you are really scorning, not me.
Bro.Chemnitz is right in that you are self-serving. I am always searching for ways to satisfy God, but you & others like you, seem to be self-righteous. And God is not impressed with outward show.
The reason I brought the tongues' thing up is because that's what it all boils down to & you can't tell me any different. I live amongst hundreds of onenesses & that's what it always boils down to...
Just this weekend I finally got to see Patrick's son, who's barely 5...first time in many weeks that I've been allowed to see him; I was *shocked* at the change in him!
Of course he's torn between two worlds & is being used as a pawn, but what shook me up the most, besides his agressive mannerism, was when he "rattled" something off & I said, "Sweetie, what did you just say?"
And then he dropped his little shaved head(one of the many "apostolic rules" he must abide by while in his daddy's care,) & mumbled "Me twying to get the Holy Ghost, Maw-Maw."
Do you know how awful that made me feel? Do you know how sick I felt inside? Now you can continue to belittle me or mock me, "all in jest," as you try to pretend, but it is my Saviour you are really scorning, not me.
Bro.Chemnitz is right in that you are self-serving. I am always searching for ways to satisfy God, but you & others like you, seem to be self-righteous. And God is not impressed with outward show.
Granny my concern is not that you have hijacked my thread, who cares? If talking about certain things helps then we can talk.
Granny, I am so glad you know my heart. I'm so glad God decided to bless someone like you with the power to convict someone like me. You deserve to sit at the left hand of God when you go to heave, Daughter of God.
*Burps Granny* Do you want the bottle back?
Granny you really do not make me mad with your ignorance. I kind of like it actually to see how you seem to be so "into searching for God" That you find so much time to search my heart as well. It really is quite funny.
And I promise I am not trying to make you mad. Im just trying to show you that when you get your eyes off Jesus it is so easy to sooth your own conscience and your own wrong doing by looking at someone else trying to find out what they are doing wrong.
Granny I joke around alot, I will let you know when I am serious. Im not seriously mad at the moment but I am serious.
The issue is not tongues and that is not what it all boils down to. The issue is the Holy GHost and a relationship with the one that gives his spirit to you. Thats what it all boils down to my friend.
God bless
[ October 08, 2002, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]
GrannyGumbo
<img src ="/Granny.gif">
Brian! God's way is always right! He has never made a mistake and He never shall! When He says something is to be done in a particular way, it is for a good reason.
What do you think about time? Do you think it is a gift from God? Do you take time for granted?
When my son had a job, which was composed of all onenesses, he dilly-dallied away the day on the computer...much like you do. Oh, he'd tell his boss he'd only do it on his "breaks" or "lunch hour", but it finally caught-up with him.
You see, Patrick is a true child of God, and I believe the Lord has been chastising him for over 3yrs. now. He lost that job. He abused his time.
Even now, he still takes it for granted. His time is running out. Just since the short time I've known you, I feel like your time is running out too.
"For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry."(Heb.10:37) God has given us until then to serve Him. We should ask Him for the grace to make the most of each day.
What do you think about time? Do you think it is a gift from God? Do you take time for granted?
When my son had a job, which was composed of all onenesses, he dilly-dallied away the day on the computer...much like you do. Oh, he'd tell his boss he'd only do it on his "breaks" or "lunch hour", but it finally caught-up with him.
You see, Patrick is a true child of God, and I believe the Lord has been chastising him for over 3yrs. now. He lost that job. He abused his time.
Even now, he still takes it for granted. His time is running out. Just since the short time I've known you, I feel like your time is running out too.
"For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry."(Heb.10:37) God has given us until then to serve Him. We should ask Him for the grace to make the most of each day.
Granny, this is not about me or my job, this is about God.
Do you really want to know about my day? DO you?
When i arrive at my office at 8:00 in the morning I come in here sit down and get done what needs to be done.
I have a whole lot of idle time on my hands. That means I sit here and do nothing. I could wonder over to another dpt and waste time, I could go smoke a cigrette if I smoked, there are alot of things I could do. So instead of takeing my 15 min breaks doing nothing, I sit here and talk to you guys.
My start time is at 8:00, my 15 min breakes are whenever I want to take them. One before lunch and one after lunch. My lunch is from 12-1.
I AM NOT PERFECT
Granny I bet you are though, thats the reason you are able to chastise me. I am not here to judge you for what you do or dont do. Christ did not even come to do that. I'm just simply showing you what the bible says. So please dont point out my faults, I know what they are.
If you are concerned thats diffrent.
What time do you feel like is running out? And where in the world did all of that come from?
Godbless
Confidence, trust, commitment.
I place my confidence of my salvation in Christ's finished work on the cross. I trust Him for my salvation. I commit myself unto Him, placing all that I am and all that I have in His care.</font>[/QUOTE]Ok if the Lord tells us something needs to be done that we have not yet done do you have the confindence to believe God is telling us we need to do it for a reason?
Do you trust him in a way that when you see something you need to do you will do it?
And are you committed to what he says to do?
All I am wanting to point out Don is this. God gave his deciples certain instructions to give to his people. Those instructions have been given. Look at what we are told to do.
We are told to be born again of the Water and the Spirit. I know you might understand the Water to be the water that your momma held you in but look closer at the word of God.
Understand that when Jesus said He that beleives and is baptized shall be saved. Look all through out the book of Acts at the examples we have been given.
I might be wrong but i really dont think I am. I beleive you understand where I am comeing from. I beleive you understand Matt 28:19 in a way that no one else on here does.
I have got the bible to back it up Don. I have got 66 books to back up that there is only One God. I have got the whole bible to back up that you need the Holy GHost to go to heaven. (just get your mind off the tongues part). I have got the entire bible backing me up that you must Repent, that you must beleive.
Don Acts 2:38 is the way that we fulfill John 3.
God bless
GrannyGumbo
<img src ="/Granny.gif">
My my~have I ruffled a few feathers?
I was simply curious to see if ya could talk about anything else other than "the usual"...you know what I'm talkin'bout!
You know ya don't really need to repost everything everyone says, don'cha? Why do ya do that? And then ya reply with just a wee bit. Why is that? [Long repost, short reply]
I used to tell my son he was robbing his employer when he "played" on the 'puter all day. We aren't the only ones you talk to, are we? (I noticed the times varied on all your posts).
As for my son's situation, I've turned it over to God to take care of it and I will accept the outcome by faith. Oh yeah, I forgot to remind you...he, too, got into this mess with "a bible study." But we all know it wasn't just any ol'bible study~it was straight from hell.
You know ya don't really need to repost everything everyone says, don'cha? Why do ya do that? And then ya reply with just a wee bit. Why is that? [Long repost, short reply]
I used to tell my son he was robbing his employer when he "played" on the 'puter all day. We aren't the only ones you talk to, are we? (I noticed the times varied on all your posts).
As for my son's situation, I've turned it over to God to take care of it and I will accept the outcome by faith. Oh yeah, I forgot to remind you...he, too, got into this mess with "a bible study." But we all know it wasn't just any ol'bible study~it was straight from hell.
Brian, this is going to be complicated, so I apologize in advance.
Look at 1 Peter 3:20-21. These verses are often used to justify salvation by baptism, or that at the very least baptism plays a part in our salvation.
However, I want you to also look at Hebrews 11:7, where it is stated plainly and unequivocably that it was the ark that saved Noah and his family.
The only part that water played was the washing away of the sinful--just as Christ's blood washes away our sins.
Baptism doesn't put away the filth of our flesh, it puts on a good conscience toward God (1 Peter 3:21) by the resurrection of Christ (which coincides with Romans 6:4, which plainly states that baptism is the likeness of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection).
Now, Jesus did plainly state that he who believes and is baptized shall be saved; but what people tend to gloss over and ignore is what Jesus plainly stated immediately after (and it's really part of the preceeding statement, making it a full sentence): "But he who believes not shall be damned.
Did Christ make a mistake here? Shouldn't that read "he who believes not and isn't baptized shall be damned"?
Or is there possibly a halfway point? Those that believe, but aren't baptized, aren't actually damned, but maybe they aren't saved, either?
That, my friend, is the problem with those who place sole emphasis on "he who believes and is baptized shall be saved." In order to make baptism a part of the salvation process, you HAVE to ignore the rest of the sentence--because the rest of the sentence places the emphasis on simply believing, and leaves out baptism.
John the Baptist echoed this himself in John 3:36, when he talked about "he that believes" and "he that believes not." No mention of baptism.
The apostle John echoed it as well in John 20:31 -- But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Again, no mention of "believe and be baptized."
You made mention of Matthew 28; however, Matthew's record makes no mention of "believe and be baptized." Instead, it says "go and teach all nations, baptizing them." Your reference was in the context of a previous discussion we had, regarding baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; it does not necessarily apply to this conversation.
The instructions you're talking about in Acts 2:38 are "repent and be baptized."
The fact of the matter remains: The only promise we are given in all 66 books of the Bible is the promise of salvation. The only way we are told that we might receive that free gift is through our acceptance--our belief--in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross.
It cannot be called a gift if we have to do anything--ANYTHING--to receive it. And it is most certainly called a gift more than once.
If we must speak in tongues to evidence it to others, it is like the child who says "I got a diamond ring from my father," and no one believes the child until she runs home and gets the ring to show them. Whether the child returns with the ring or not, the other children have judged her and refuse to believe her until she shows the evidence of her claim. Their refusal to believe her claim in no way diminishes the fact that she was given a gift from her father; if she fails to return and show them the proof, they will nod their heads and smugly say to each other, "she didn't really receive a gift from her dad." This also in no way diminishes the fact that she received a gift from her father.
Beware, my friend, of those that teach that you must show evidence of the existence of God, either in yourself, in others, or in the universe. If you want to see what I mean by this warning, the next time one of your Oneness Pentecostal brethren ask or urge or otherwise encourage you to "exhibit" a gift of the Holy Spirit (without, of course, you yourself being led by the Holy Spirit to do so), refuse. Do so kindly, without malice. Tell them you are not led by the Spirit at that time to do so.
Do that once, and they'll be disappointed. Do it twice, and they'll be suspicious. Do it more than twice, and you'll receive a visit.
Sorry about the length.
Look at 1 Peter 3:20-21. These verses are often used to justify salvation by baptism, or that at the very least baptism plays a part in our salvation.
However, I want you to also look at Hebrews 11:7, where it is stated plainly and unequivocably that it was the ark that saved Noah and his family.
The only part that water played was the washing away of the sinful--just as Christ's blood washes away our sins.
Baptism doesn't put away the filth of our flesh, it puts on a good conscience toward God (1 Peter 3:21) by the resurrection of Christ (which coincides with Romans 6:4, which plainly states that baptism is the likeness of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection).
Now, Jesus did plainly state that he who believes and is baptized shall be saved; but what people tend to gloss over and ignore is what Jesus plainly stated immediately after (and it's really part of the preceeding statement, making it a full sentence): "But he who believes not shall be damned.
Did Christ make a mistake here? Shouldn't that read "he who believes not and isn't baptized shall be damned"?
Or is there possibly a halfway point? Those that believe, but aren't baptized, aren't actually damned, but maybe they aren't saved, either?
That, my friend, is the problem with those who place sole emphasis on "he who believes and is baptized shall be saved." In order to make baptism a part of the salvation process, you HAVE to ignore the rest of the sentence--because the rest of the sentence places the emphasis on simply believing, and leaves out baptism.
John the Baptist echoed this himself in John 3:36, when he talked about "he that believes" and "he that believes not." No mention of baptism.
The apostle John echoed it as well in John 20:31 -- But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Again, no mention of "believe and be baptized."
You made mention of Matthew 28; however, Matthew's record makes no mention of "believe and be baptized." Instead, it says "go and teach all nations, baptizing them." Your reference was in the context of a previous discussion we had, regarding baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; it does not necessarily apply to this conversation.
The instructions you're talking about in Acts 2:38 are "repent and be baptized."
The fact of the matter remains: The only promise we are given in all 66 books of the Bible is the promise of salvation. The only way we are told that we might receive that free gift is through our acceptance--our belief--in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross.
It cannot be called a gift if we have to do anything--ANYTHING--to receive it. And it is most certainly called a gift more than once.
If we must speak in tongues to evidence it to others, it is like the child who says "I got a diamond ring from my father," and no one believes the child until she runs home and gets the ring to show them. Whether the child returns with the ring or not, the other children have judged her and refuse to believe her until she shows the evidence of her claim. Their refusal to believe her claim in no way diminishes the fact that she was given a gift from her father; if she fails to return and show them the proof, they will nod their heads and smugly say to each other, "she didn't really receive a gift from her dad." This also in no way diminishes the fact that she received a gift from her father.
Beware, my friend, of those that teach that you must show evidence of the existence of God, either in yourself, in others, or in the universe. If you want to see what I mean by this warning, the next time one of your Oneness Pentecostal brethren ask or urge or otherwise encourage you to "exhibit" a gift of the Holy Spirit (without, of course, you yourself being led by the Holy Spirit to do so), refuse. Do so kindly, without malice. Tell them you are not led by the Spirit at that time to do so.
Do that once, and they'll be disappointed. Do it twice, and they'll be suspicious. Do it more than twice, and you'll receive a visit.
Sorry about the length.
Yep, He sure is. He can be a voice, a dove, and a man all at the same time.
In other words, He can be three different, distinct things at once.
Just as He can be three different, distinct persons at once.
You answered your own question.</font>[/QUOTE]Thats right, Don God can be three diffrent persons if he wanted to. I never have stated that he could not.
THe problem with him being seperated plainly goes against what Scripture is teaching.
God said
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
If God is three seperate persons, that means there is a saviour beside of God.
Scripture plainly teaches that God is one. God is not two or three. The bible says he is one.
GrannyGumbo
<img src ="/Granny.gif">
Nope! It was exactly like the one you attended and everyone around here takes who gets "caught-up" in the oneness heresy.
Nope, not exactly correct.
Jesus said quite plainly, "I and my father are one." He also said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the father."
Self-contradicting statements by your reasoning, as Jesus is plainly saying that He is God, but at the same time refers to Himself as two different people (I vs. Father).
However, easily resolved when you ascribe to your own answer: God can be more than one person at one time. This does not make Him multiple gods, but one god capable of things we can't understand or reasonably explain.
False logic.
God once became a burning bush, and another time became a whirlwind; was He only that burning bush? Was He only that whirlwind? Or does He have the ability to be those things while still being God?
The Bible also says "I and my father (referring to two distinct different people) are one"; it also says there are three that bear record, and these three are one.
I have never ignored the scriptures that say there is one god; what you're asking me to do is ignore the scriptures that say there is three-in-one.
In fact, I encourage you to do a word search on the number three, and see what all kinds of stuff you come up with (three years, three days, three gates on each wall of the heavenly city, etc., etc.); and then ask yourself a simple question: Why such emphasis on the number three?
Nope, not exactly correct.
Jesus said quite plainly, "I and my father are one." He also said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the father."
Self-contradicting statements by your reasoning, as Jesus is plainly saying that He is God, but at the same time refers to Himself as two different people (I vs. Father).
However, easily resolved when you ascribe to your own answer: God can be more than one person at one time. This does not make Him multiple gods, but one god capable of things we can't understand or reasonably explain.
False logic.
God once became a burning bush, and another time became a whirlwind; was He only that burning bush? Was He only that whirlwind? Or does He have the ability to be those things while still being God?
The Bible also says "I and my father (referring to two distinct different people) are one"; it also says there are three that bear record, and these three are one.
I have never ignored the scriptures that say there is one god; what you're asking me to do is ignore the scriptures that say there is three-in-one.
In fact, I encourage you to do a word search on the number three, and see what all kinds of stuff you come up with (three years, three days, three gates on each wall of the heavenly city, etc., etc.); and then ask yourself a simple question: Why such emphasis on the number three?</font>[/QUOTE]If it were so God would have mentioned that he was a trinity or a triune God just has he mentioned everything else was three.
Why such emphasis on the number three? There is none Don. Not pertaiining to the Godhead. There is such an emphasis on the fact that God is one that you cant exclude that.
Yes God was a burning bush, and looking at it from a trintarian P.o.v the bush must have been a seperate person as well.
Which person in the God head was the one talking through the burning bush?
Let me ask you these questions as well.
Which Person lives inside of us today?
Which Lord is our Lord?
If I was just talking to the Holy Ghost would The other two get mad?
It is so simple to see that Jesus is the supreme Name God. It is so simple to understand that they are all the same person.
Ask yourself why the apostles never baptized any other way than in the Name of Jesus. Ask your self why no where does the bible speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost save Matt 28:19. If the trinity was real and it was so important God would have let us know with out haveing to hint around.
Well I just dropped by to see what all the ruckus was about and just throw this scripture in for good measure. Oneness you don't know me but everyone else does... I'm Brother Glen and I too am studying the Triune Godhead!
I Timothy 3: 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory... Brother Glen
I Timothy 3: 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory... Brother Glen
GrannyGumbo
<img src ="/Granny.gif">
Hey, Bro.Glen! I had started to post your article written by Eld.Wilson Thompson here for Brian to see...but didn't know how you'd feel about it. It was written in 1825, way before this modern-day "oneness/Jesus-only" doctrine came about.