Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate

Yea I love that scripture. Where do you get this denotes three seperate persons?

 

Bro. Glen, are you saying that 1 Timothy 3:16 shows a Triune Godhead?

MEE</font>[/QUOTE] Hey MEE.

Could you please do me a favour? Could you pray for me about my schooling? Something kind of got twisted around last night and my insturcters saw something and are takeing it totally the wrong way. So could you please pray that everything works out. And even if It does not work out the way I want you will please pray for God to allow me to see his will through all this.

God bless

 

Genesis 1, verse 1 -- the word elohiym is translated God, yet, as has been shown to you before, is a plural intensive word. "Plural," as I'm sure you're aware, usually means "more than one."

Now, since God inspired this phrase to be written the way we find it in Genesis 1, verse 1, then your statement is invalid; i.e., God DID mention that He was more than one.

Brother, please examine your words. The number three figures in prominently throughout the Bible, just as does the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

Deny this all you want. It'll still be there at the end of the day when you get tired of denying it.

Funny, that's exactly what we say about the three-in-one....

It's only hidden to those that choose to not see it. Look at 2 Corinthians 13:14. Ephesians 2:18. Revelation 1:4-6. And of course, 1 John 5:7.

Ask yourself something: Matthew 28:19 does say baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Mark 16 says go and preach; all who believe and are baptized shall be saved, but those who believe not are already damned (no mention of baptizing in any name). Luke 24 says repentence and remission should be preached in His name (no mention of baptizing in His name).

There's this saying I've learned over the years that goes something like this: "Majoring on the minors, and minoring on the majors." Hope you understand what I'm getting at....

When we make a distinction like "you have to be baptized in Jesus' name, and not the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost," you have to ask yourself a question: Are you really going to sit there and tell someone that if they were baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, their baptism was invalid, and they need to be re-baptized?

How can it be an invalid baptism if Jesus Himself said do it this way? If we agree that the Bible is 100% inspired/written by God, then the instructions we find in Matthew 28:19 are more than valid because they are the words of Jesus Himself. To say that they're invalid is to say that the words we find in Matthew are not true. If that's the case, then the entire Bible is suspect and not to be trusted, because now we have to carefully pick and choose which parts are actually correct, and which parts we can simply discard and throw aside.

Is that really what you're after, Brian?</font>[/QUOTE]

Elohiym is plural as you stated, Now lets eximine what you are saying.

Instead of putting "God" in Gen 1:26 lets use the actual word used in Gen 1:26 which is Elohyim.

Gen 1:26 And Elohyim said Let us Make man in Our Image.

Now lets see if I understand your definition of Elohyim.

Elohyim is plural so it represents the persons of God correct?

Thats even better to prove my case. If Elohyim was saying let us, than someone besides Elohyim was there that Elohyim was talking to. So as I said before, if God is a trinity and God was doing the talking, that means someone other than the trinity was there who the trinity was talking to.

So it is easy to see that God was not talking to his other persons here in Gen 1:26.

If Gen 1:26 is letting us know that God was talking to his other persons, Gen 1:27 would read "So God made man in THEIR image. In the image of God they created him. Male and female they created them.

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost was only stated once in the entire bible and it was used to decribe One Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

My friend when we look at Mark 16:16

He that beleiveth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that beleiveth not shall be damned.

Why do take just the last part of that scripture as the only thing that one needs to do. Just b/c the latter part does not state baptisim, does that exclude it from the first? No! not at all. Did the writer make a mistake when he wrote "...and is baptized shall be saved"? and then correct himself? Of course not!

Luke 24 you say mentions no where about the Name of Jesus. Than If I might ask you what Name is this referring to? Who was doing the talking, what does the scripture reveal above that. It's very clear that in the context that the Name that Luke was referring to Is Jesus.

We find the fulfillment of that in Acts 2:38 when Peter preached the exact same thing he was told to preach by Jesus himself.

Acts 2:38 fulfills Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:16, Luke 24:45-49 and John 1:5

Jesus gave Peter the keys to heaven. Do you think Peter is going to go against what Jesus told him to Preach? Not at all! In not so many words God told Peter that what ever you do I am going to back it up. Peter understood that Jesus was the Son of God, and understood what the "Son of God" referred to.

If he had a diffrent understanding than that which we have he would have preached it. Did he preach "Baptize in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost or did he Preach Jesus Name? Its very easy to see.

Peter understood that there is no other name given among men under heaven where by we Must be saved.(acts 4:12)

Peter understood that whatsover you do in word or in deed do all in the Name of the Lord Jesus giveing thanks to God and the Father by him.

Another question does that mean that God is seperate than the Father? Its clear that The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all the same Person. Those titles are just the diffrent ways that God manifested or revealed himself to his people

Don this is the majors. This is the way God said to do it. Was it a big deal that the high preists did everything in the temple the exact same way that God told them to? You Bettcha! Could the High Preist skip the alter? COuld he skip the brasen laver? Could he skip the bread? Could he skip the insence? Could he skip the candles? Could he skip the Holy of Hollies? No way! It was set up so presice that if he did one thing wrong they had a rope tied around his ankles with a bell, and if the bell ever quit ringing that was the sign that the priest was dead and in return they could pull him out with the rope.
You asked if I really would sit and tell some one that they needed to be rebaptized if they were baptized any other way than in the Name of Jesus. You bet I would! Why? Because thats exactly what Paul did in Acts 19.

Don what Jesus said to do was 100% correct and 100% inspired by God. Matt 28:19 is valid and they are the words of Jesus himself. So we can go ahead and keep beleiving that the bible is still 100% true.

On the other hand what might not be 100% true is the way we understand what Jesus said. If you would slow down, take your time and read it for what it means, (not what is says) it is so easy to understand.

Please Don, dont shut me out yet. Listen to this and ponder on it as I have done with what you give me.

So many people are taking what Jesus said and repeating it. In other words, so many people are saying "We baptize you in the name of the father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
That is just repeating the instructions of Jesus.

We put what Jesus said into action when we baptize in that One Name ofThe father and ofthe Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

That is why you can look at the book of acts and understand why not once was it ever recorded that someone was baptized with Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

What I am after is the Truth and nothing but the Truth so help me God. And I know I am in that truth b/c number one the bible shows it, number two God has confirmed it with me through is word and through my prayers.

Don, i hoped this helped.

Sincerely

Brian

 

And you are forgiven my child. LOL Im kidding. You know I forgive you and Im sorry too.

Im not trying to add anything else but I would like to say this too. I know alot of baptist that do the prayer cloth thing. We have never done it but if someone wanted to pray over something and leave it with me it would be such a joy. And I dont care if It came from the Methodest, Baptist, Catholics, Prebs, Luthrens, etc. Pray is prayer no matter who is praying. And God answers prayer. he is not a respector of Persons.

God bless

 

How are you Bro Glen, Ive seen you around but Im not sure we have met.

God did create us with a body mind spirit. God did create us in his image. If God is three distinct persons or seperate Persons, than would it not make since that we would be three seperat persons as well?

If we look at it as in the terms of relation ships it helps out.

Just like I am a Son, Uncle, and a Brother. I am not seperated b/c I am those three. They are just diffrent relationships to diffrent people.

God is the same way. He is our Father. Is the Son our son or was it his son? And the Holy Spirit is none other Than the Father in his spirit nature.

He was the Father in creation, the son in redemption and the Holy spirit in us today.

Hope I did not confuse you. i am over at my parents and I am not running on much time. So i did kinda skip over a few things and put in the high lights. If I messed anything up I will try to redeem it tomorrow on break.

Godbless

 

Agree 110%, Aman Bro Glen

 

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Did God use a voice from heaven to talk to himself? No, not to talk to himself! God used a voice when Jesus was baptized, but the voice was not for Jesus’ sake. The voice from heaven was for the people’s sake. It was sign for the people. The voice came at the beginning of Christ’s ministry. There were to other occurrences of a voice from heaven and both of those were for the people that were standing by him. Matt 3:17 “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, Hear ye him”. And the third time was for the Greeks (John 12:30) And Jesus said that the voice was not for him, but for their sakes.

Was Jesus praying to himself in the Garden? It is very easy for us to see that when Jesus was praying is was not the eternal spirit inside of that man that was praying. It was simply the “Man” crying out in his Humanity “Not my will but thine be done”. And Hebrews 5:7 confirms that.

Ask your self something Don. Does the deity of Jesus need help? No only the flesh does, b/c he was flesh just like you and I. But at the same time Jesus still had his second nature, His Deity. Jesus said “the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak”. If you view Christ’s prayers as one person talking to another or one person praying to another than it indicates that the 2nd Person in the Trinity is subordinate to the Father. Thus it does not only contradict the doctrine of the Trinity, which states they are “Co Equal”, It also clearly contradicts the Word of God b/c Jesus Said “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the End…”

Don and I have given you scripture that says “To the Glory of God and the Father by him” Don, you know I love you brother, but the scripture you indicate to not imply a separation of persons. When one Speaks of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost its all relationship to humanity. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all ways that God chose to manifest himself to us.

John 14 Jesus said “I will not leave you comfortless I will come to you”. Jesus is going away but he will come again, not in the form of a man but as the holy Ghost, another relationship, same person, same God, different relationship, Different manifestation.

When Jesus said the latter part “He that believeth not shall be damned”. What was he meaning? “Believe not what”? Is it just referring to one thing or was he referring to everything he said. He was clearly meaning you must believe everything including “Those that believe and are baptized shall be saved”.

Acts 10 is a perfect example. Peter was very clear on the subject at hand. It was so important that he did not give them a chance at decision. Peter said “Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

I cant show you that John’s Baptism was done saying “Father, Son, and Holy Ghost” Because the bible does not teach that. On the contrary the bible does tell us what John was telling the people when he baptized. John said “that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus”

When they heard that the bible tells us that the were rebaptized. How were thy baptized? In the Name of Jesus of Course!

Many churches today like to baptize for the “Same Reason” John Baptized. All the people were doing when John baptized them was giving a public confession that they had repented and that they were going to believe on Jesus.

But on the day of Pentecost we were given new instructions on what baptism In the Name of Jesus was for. It was not longer an outward showing of our faith, but that is was for the remission of sins.

My friend that is why the Apostles made such a big deal about being baptized.

I was not saying all that to show you that John baptized with the Titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I was showing you that to let you know, that the Name of Jesus needs to be said. (Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.)

I’m just going to use a simple analogy like I have used before.

You are a Father, You are a Son, and You are a Husband I assume. If you give your son a check and tell him to go get it cashed and just sign it with Father, Son, and Husband will they cash it? But if you place your Name on the check then it will become processed. B/c all the authority is in your Name. Not your titles, your name.

It’s the same thing when you and I pray. Do we Pray (some people do) “Dear, our most precious Heavenly Father. We enter your gates with thanksgiving and we enter into your courts with praise, we thank you for all you do and all that you are. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, I am asking you to please touch my family and… God we know that you alone are worthy of our praise, we know that if you make this happen it will be one more soul added to your kingdom, So Lord, in the Name of The Father, and Of the Son, and Of the Holy Spirit I pray”.

Is that how we pray? No we pray in the Name of Jesus.

MEE has posted book that we should all read. And it can do a whole lot more justice explaining the Name of Jesus than I can.

There is so much power in the Name of Jesus. It’s at the mention of that Name that all tongues will swear and all knees will bow. Its at that Name that Demons are cast out. It that Name that’s the only Name given under heaven among men where by we must be saved.

Again this is not the deity crying out to deity, it’s the humanity crying out in prayer. (The flesh is weak, but the spirit is willing)

God bless you Don

[ October 10, 2002, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]