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The LORD vs the Lord

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by HisMercy, Apr 19, 2004.

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  1. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    I don't think so. Jesus isn't referred to as Yahweh. He's referred to as kurios, which means Master. Bother "Yahweh" and "Kurios" were translated as "Lord" by our Elizabethen translators. The word "lord" was a common word referring to an authority figure in the Elizabethan era. Over time, we've generally stopped using the word in daily language, but have kept the custom of referring to Yahweh and Christ as "Lord".
     
    #21 Johnv, Apr 27, 2004
  2. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    Johnv,

    Help me with Isaiah 9:6 that refers to a son(Jesus)and is called "The everlasting Father."

    Also, you said it is the Father who is speaking in the old testament. Then, are there two saviours?
    Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."

    John 4:42 "and said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world."

    If the Father says in Isaiah there is no saviour beside me then isn't it the Father in flesh that is being talked about in John?
     
    #22 HisMercy, Apr 29, 2004
  3. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    This question is meant to be sarcastic. The bible says we are made in the image of God. Men have determined that God is three persons. Are you, am I three persons? Aren't we made in His image because we have body, spirit and mind?
     
    #23 HisMercy, Apr 29, 2004
  4. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    Perhaps this scripture is appropriate for this topic. 1Cor. 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
     
    #24 HisMercy, May 3, 2004
  5. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    I guess I can't expect help from men regarding the Word of God. Only he gives understanding to his words. Just as he explained the parables to his disciples. Man couldn't explain it to one another.

    MEE,

    Hope you have had a chance to look at the 2 websites I mentioned to you. What do you think about these scriptures? Do they explain what you believe?

    1Cor. 8:6 "but to us there is but one God, the Father..."

    1Tim. 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh,.."

    1Tim. 6:3-5 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself."

    The doctrine which is according to godliness is that the one God, the Father manifest in flesh. That is my understanding from these scriptures.
     
    #25 HisMercy, May 6, 2004
  6. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    This is more of a translational issue. The hebrew word 'ab referrs to the chief in a patriarchal society. It's not the same thing as Jesus referring to Abba, which literally means "daddy".

    Here, the word yasha` isn't referring to messianic salvation, but to a safekeeper, that is, one who keeps you safe.
     
    #26 Johnv, May 6, 2004
  7. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    Johnv,

    Who is Jesus the Father of as used in Isaiah 9:6?
    Does that mean you don't consider Jesus as our safekeeper?
     
    #27 HisMercy, May 11, 2004
  8. MEE

    MEE <img src=/me3.jpg>

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    I do! ;)

    Isaiah 9:6

    6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Col. 2:9)

    9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    One God!

    MEE [​IMG]
     
    #28 MEE, May 11, 2004
  9. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    I agree with you MEE. Were you able to look at any of the articles on those two websites yet?
     
    #29 HisMercy, May 12, 2004
  10. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    I said nothing of the sort. You're putting words in my mouth, and I don't appreciate any implication that I'm questioning the trinity, the divinity of Jesus, or anything similar. I was responding to the topic at hand. "Everlasting Father" does not mean that Jesus is the same as the Father. While they are one in Godhead, they are separate in personage.
     
    #30 Johnv, May 12, 2004
  11. MEE

    MEE <img src=/me3.jpg>

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    Johnv, could you possibly explain what "separate in personage" means? I've tried and tried to understand how one God can be made up of three persons. :confused:

    Help!

    MEE [​IMG]
     
    #31 MEE, May 12, 2004
  12. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Look at an apple. An apple has pulp, has skin, and has a core. Individually, they're still parts of the apple. Sometimes, a person will refer to a slice of apple as "an apple", even though the slice (which is pulp) is one part of the whole apple.

    So it is with the Trinity. The Godhead of the Trinity is made up of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Individually, they're still part of the Godhead. Sometimes, as in the OT, people will refer to the Father as "God", even though the Father is one personage in the Trinity.
     
    #32 Johnv, May 13, 2004
  13. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    Johnv,

    You said yasha isn't referring to messianic salvation but to a safekeeper. You said you presumed it was the Father who spoke in the OT. Since the Father said there is no other saviour then I'm asking you if you believe the Father is the safekeeper and not the Son. I didn't say you are questioning the trinity. But I believe the Word of God certainly questions the doctrine. John, can one person be a father, son and husband without being more than one person?
     
    #33 HisMercy, May 13, 2004
  14. MEE

    MEE <img src=/me3.jpg>

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    OK, let me ask this, if I may?

    If there are three persons, in the Trinity, do/can they talk to each other, in heaven, now?

    MEE [​IMG]
     
    #34 MEE, May 13, 2004
  15. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    We have no idea. We only know that, when Jesus was on the earth, he prayed to the Father. At Jesus' baptism in the Jordan River, the Father spoke, and the Holy Spirit was seen (the only instance in the Bible were all three persons of the Trinity are expereinced at the same time and place).

    Other than that, we simply don't know, and can only speculate.
     
    #35 Johnv, May 13, 2004
  16. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    I don't believe the word was speaking to the matter of separate persons of the Trinity. The verse is saying that God is our safekeeper. That's all it was meant to say. This verse is not referring to salvation that we receive via Christ. That type of salvation is addressed later in the NT.
     
    #36 Johnv, May 13, 2004
  17. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    OK, I guess now is a good time to introduce everyone to this page. It really clarifies the issue from the viewpoint of the long forgotten pre-Nicene orthdoxy .
     
    #37 Eric B, May 13, 2004
  18. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    Johnv,

    At the baptism of Jesus, Jesus is the only person that was seen. There was a voice from heaven and a dove was seen. Three persons are not seen even in this example.
     
    #38 HisMercy, May 17, 2004
  19. MEE

    MEE <img src=/me3.jpg>

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    I agree HM! Only one person will ever be in the Godhead and that is "The Christ."

    BTW, HM, I did look at the information, in the links, that you sent. I feel that you are on to some good things. ;)

    MEE [​IMG]
     
    #39 MEE, May 17, 2004
  20. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady Active Member

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    [​IMG]

    The best definition I have ever heard of the trinty is this:

    Within the nature of the one God, there are three eternal beings. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

    Does that help, or just muddy the water some more?

    Working for Jesus,

    Tam,

    :D [​IMG]
     
    #40 tamborine lady, May 17, 2004
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