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The LORD vs the Lord

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by HisMercy, Apr 19, 2004.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Marcia makes a good point here. When Jesus says "Nevertheless not My will by THY will be done" it makes no sense at all unless He is speaking to another PERSON of the Godhead. Speaking to HIMSELF in those words would be insanity.

    The same is true when He says to His disciples "I go to the Father" and "The Father is greater than I" and "I do not say that I will ask the Father - for the Father Himself loves you".

    None of that works - as one person talking about himself.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #121 BobRyan, Jun 10, 2004
  2. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    Marcia,

    Jesus said in John 6:63 that the words he speaks are spirit and are life. That means his words are beyond the literal.
     
    #122 HisMercy, Jun 11, 2004
  3. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    BobRyan,

    I did address this. God had to manifest in flesh not only to fulfill his death on the cross but to lead man by his example so that we can follow in his footsteps. We are to pray, not our will but the will of God as he showed us.
     
    #123 HisMercy, Jun 11, 2004
  4. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Jesus said it literally when he said he came to to the Father's will. He was literal when he commended his spirit to the Father.

    This verse in John 6 cannot be used to make mystical mumbo-jumbo out of clear statements made by Jesus Christ. That is what New Agers do. I'm very familiar with it. Whatever they don't like in the Bible, they pour another meaning into it to make it say what they want.

    One cannot misuse this verse to make the literal statements of Jesus mean anything one wants them to, or to say they are beyond literal meaning when it is clear from the context and from other passages that the statement was literal.
     
    #124 Marcia, Jun 12, 2004
  5. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    Marcia,

    2Cor. 3:6 "..not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."
     
    #125 HisMercy, Jun 14, 2004
  6. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    This quote has nothing to do with Jesus speaking literally. This is talking about something else entirely -- about the letter of the law -- nothing to do with simple, everyday, literal statements.
     
    #126 Marcia, Jun 14, 2004
  7. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    Marcia,

    Are we supposed to interpret the Word of God in the literal sense?

    What about "Eat my flesh and drink my blood"?
     
    #127 HisMercy, Jun 15, 2004
  8. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I think I said it earlier, we interpret the word literally where it is meant literally, poetically where it is poetic, as parable where Jesus tells a parable, etc., like in any other book.

    How do we know? From context. The 3 top rules for hermeneutics: context, context, context.
     
    #128 Marcia, Jun 16, 2004
  9. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    Marcia,

    Isaiah 28:9-10 "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little."

    It doesn't seem like this would totally agree with the rules of hermeneutics.

    Just curious to know what you think about 1John 2:27 "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." and

    Jeremiah 31:34 "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
     
    #129 HisMercy, Jun 17, 2004
  10. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    What do those passages have to do with you trying to show from scripture the original issue? None of those scriptures prove your point, either for Oneness or good hermeneutics.

    Many passages, such as in 1 and 2 Timothy, tell us to hold to sound doctrine and to rightly divide the word of truth.

    You have not made your case from scripture that the Oneness view is correct.
     
    #130 Marcia, Jun 17, 2004
  11. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    Marcia,

    I'm not trying to prove "Oneness." Your belief that good hermeneutics is based upon context does not agree with doctrine being taught by means of "here a little and there a little." The doctrine of the LORD is discussed in Isaiah. Explain why the son is called "The everlasting Father in Isaiah 9:6.
     
    #131 HisMercy, Jun 18, 2004
  12. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    It is actually, "Father of eternity" or "Father of everlasting." In the Hebrew interlinear that I have, the Hebrew for "Father" is "father of" preceeding "everlasting."

    Geisler, in When Critics Ask, (p. 268), states that "He is the Father of eternity for His people. The name 'Father of eternity,' indicates that, as a loving father provides for His children, so Jesus loves us and has provided for us by giving us everlasting life."

    In Gleason Archer's Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties (oddly enough, also p. 268), states that the translation, "Everlasting Father" is dubious because the Hebrew word literally means "Father of Eternity."

    The NET Bible has a note on this as well, stating that "father" is being used here in the sense of a protector of his people.
     
    #132 Marcia, Jun 19, 2004
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Christ prays TO the FATHER saying TO Him not MY will by MY will be done.... err I mean no MY will by THY will be done.

    The Father says "This is my beloved Son hear ME"... I mean "hear HIM".

    Christ sits down "at the RIGHT hand of the Father" - did it say "at hiw OWN right hand"?

    Christ said "I do not say that I will ask the Father on your behalf for the Father HIMSELF loves you".

    John 1 - No one has seen the Father at any time.

    The example of contradictions to the view that the Father and the Son are the same person - is endless.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #133 BobRyan, Jun 19, 2004
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The triune God can be seen in both the OT and NT - however the concept is made crystal clear in the NT.

    Those who need to obscure the teaching - have to stick with just certain parts of the OT.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #134 BobRyan, Jun 19, 2004
  15. frewtloop

    frewtloop Guest

    A couple of points I've always wondered about:

    --Passages in the NT that use the phrase "God our Savior" and thus seem to express a concept more properly said of Jesus, and

    --Passages, I think in Paul's writing mainly, that use the phrase "the God of Jesus Christ," which appear to speak of Him in terms other than those of Deity.

    TheWorm
     
    #135 frewtloop, Jun 21, 2004
  16. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    Marcia,

    So then the Father who is not the Son according to what you believe is not our protector?
    And the Father is not the Father of eternity?

    BobRyan,

    Psalms 16:8 "I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved." Is the LORD literally at the right side of David?

    "For the Father himself loves you." Didn't Jesus love them?

    "No one has seen the Father at any time." John 14:9 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" These aren't contradictions but a lack of understanding the identity of God.

    TheWorm,

    Because there is only one God, the Father according to 1Cor. 8:6, God is our Saviour. God is Spirit. God manifest in flesh (Jesus Christ).
     
    #136 HisMercy, Jun 21, 2004
  17. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    God the Father is our protector, as is Jesus Christ (to those who believe).

    Genesis says that God created the heavens and the earth (and the HS hovered over the waters). Col. 1 says that Jesus created. This is because they both did -- the persons of the Trinity work in harmony within the Godhead. Many of the titles given to God are also given to Jesus; God the Father, Jesus, and the HS are all described as having personal traits to show they are not forces or just aspects of something; but it is clear that God the Father, Jesus, and the HS are distinct from each other, though they are one in unity in the Godhead. I thing enough scripture to show this has been posted and I probably will not post anymore as either one accepts it or one doesn't.
     
    #137 Marcia, Jun 21, 2004
  18. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    Marcia,

    Yes Genesis 1 says God created the heaven and the earth.And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    1Cor. 8:6 says there is but one God, the Father.

    Col. 1:16 says for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...

    The doctrine of the trinity says the Father is the creator. This doesn't agree with what is written because the doctrine distinguishes between Father, Son & Holy Spirit.
     
    #138 HisMercy, Jun 22, 2004
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