tongues

Originally posted by MEE:
DHK, yes you are correct! I do sometimes evade you, but not on this subject. I have answered you, you are the one that doesn't see the 'word' for what it says.

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Here is what the WORD says on the subject:

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1 John 5:10-12 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

There are many more MEE. I can keep on posting--from the Old Testament as well. Salvation is belief on Jesus Christ, and on his sacrifice--what He has done for us. Tongues has nothing to do with it. If you believe that tongues is part of salvation Paul says that you have a false gospel and are accursed:

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

What was the gospel that Paul preached?

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

This is not the gospel that you believe in is it. The gospel that you believe in includes tongues. It is a heretical gospel, one that Paul says is accursed. Without the Book of Acts you cannot demonstrate your heretical doctrine. If you can do so. I have left you that challenge many times. Not once have you ever answered it.

Answer me one question! What book, of the Bible, does it show one where the NT church was born, in the biginning, for the very first time?

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The Church started on the Day of Pentecost as recorded in the Book of Acts, a book of history, not of doctrine. It is the Book of the Acts of the Apostles. It records the "Acts" of the Apostles. The Epistles record the "doctrines" of the Apostles. Yet you can't show your doctrine from a doctrinal book like the Book of Romans which is a book that is a treatise on soteriology, the doctrine of salvation itself.
DHK

Hi Carol, You have been oddly silent about my last couple posts. I may not have answered what you wanted to before. Please ask me any question you want and re-ask anything I may have forgotten to answer.

Ed, SMM, or any other person who believes tongues are for today. Pleas tell me what the verses in question from 1Cor. 14 mean if they do not mean what DHK and I have said. Think about it, if you can't come up with a meaning then maybe we are right and you need to re-adjust your view on tongues.

DHK, Just to keep this thread interesting, I have a question for you. I know you believe that ALL gifts have passed with the completion of the Bible. There is some cause to believe this, I know that. I struggle with why Paul would have spent some much time detailing How the "body" of the local assembly looks, compared to a real body (1 Cor. 12) and how it works together and how God gives the gifts to complete the "body". Paul really makes a detailed account of how it all works together. Why would he do that for something soon to end???? - just a thought I have been pondering.

In Christ,
Brian

Briguy: "Ed, SMM, or any other person who believes tongues are for today. Pleas tell me what the verses in question from 1Cor. 14 mean if they do not mean what DHK and I have said. Think about it, if you can't come up with a meaning then maybe we are right and you need to re-adjust your view on tongues."

I do not agree with your definition of
"tongues". We have little to discuss with
variant definition of "tongues".

BTW, if tongues (whatever they are) are
a sign for the Jews, then the world needs
the tongues sign
real bad, for the Judgement of the
Jews is coming soon: the Tribulation period.

BTW, tongues is NOT the only sign that
the Holy Spirit has indwelt a person.

Hi Ed, thanks for the quick response. The only definition of tongues we should think about is the biblical definition. Anyway, what is your definition and what do the verses mean based on your definition.

Tongues are a direct sign because scripture says so. What scriptual signs are you referring to?

Looking forward to your response,
In Christ,
Brian

Originally posted by Briguy:

DHK, Just to keep this thread interesting, I have a question for you. I know you believe that ALL gifts have passed with the completion of the Bible. There is some cause to believe this, I know that. I struggle with why Paul would have spent some much time detailing How the "body" of the local assembly looks, compared to a real body (1 Cor. 12) and how it works together and how God gives the gifts to complete the "body". Paul really makes a detailed account of how it all works together. Why would he do that for something soon to end???? - just a thought I have been pondering.

In Christ,
Brian

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I believe that God expects us to use our God-given talents and abilities in the church. Some people, for example have outstanding musical ability, but when they don't use it they lose it. They bury their talent in the sand.

This is different than the gifts of the spirit of the first century. I cannot fully explain how except to say that all of the gifts of the spirit were supernatural. They were not just an extraordinary gift or talent, they were supernaturally given. That is why I believe they have ceased. Many people have the gift of preaching (what you may define as prophecy), but not supernaturally). Many may have a gift for helping people (gift of helps), but not supernaturally. That is a tough gift to explain. But somehow God gave perhaps supernatural strength for some to help people in the church that otherwise would be neglected. I am not sure exactly how it worked. I simply believe that all the gifts of the spirit in the first century were supernaturally given, whereas today they are not. God uses the talents and abilities that we have. He gives more grace as we need it.
DHK

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
DHK, yes you are correct! I do sometimes evade you, but not on this subject. I have answered you, you are the one that doesn't see the 'word' for what it says.

Click to expand...

Here is what the WORD says on the subject:

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1 John 5:10-12 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

There are many more MEE. I can keep on posting--from the Old Testament as well. Salvation is belief on Jesus Christ, and on his sacrifice--what He has done for us. Tongues has nothing to do with it. If you believe that tongues is part of salvation Paul says that you have a false gospel and are accursed:

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

What was the gospel that Paul preached?

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

This is not the gospel that you believe in is it. The gospel that you believe in includes tongues. It is a heretical gospel, one that Paul says is accursed. Without the Book of Acts you cannot demonstrate your heretical doctrine. If you can do so. I have left you that challenge many times. Not once have you ever answered it.

DHK </font>[/QUOTE]What do you mean, "This is not the gospel that I believe in?...of course it is. All of the scriptures you quoted are in the Bible. Why wouldn't I believe in them?

Most all of them talk about 'believing.' The problem is what you believe and what I believe are different.

You believe that one just receives the Spirit when you repent. Right?

Romans 8:9..Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

If you read in Acts 8:8, is says, "And there was great joy in that city." Why?...because Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ unto them.

Yes, they were believers and they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. (Acts 8:12)

But, there is still a problem about their salvatiion. John 3:3) ..Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born agian, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

These people believed, had been baptized, but had not received the Spirit of God, as of yet.

Acts 8:16-17) (For as yet he (Spirit of God) was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

As you can see, I do believe that one has to believe in repentance, being baptized, in the name of Jesus Christ, and receive the Holy Ghost...Acts 2:38 ...also, verse 39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

DHK, you can quote scripture, all you want and make it sound any way you want, but it takes repentance, being baptized, in the name of Jesus Christ, and being filled with the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in other tongues, to make heaven. If you don't believe me believe the Apostle Peter! (Acts 2:38)

It appears to me that you don't like the plan of salvation that was once delivered to the early church, which started on the Day of Pentecost; when the NT Church was born. Why?


MEE

Originally posted by MEE:
DHK, you can quote scripture, all you want and make it sound any way you want, but it takes repentance, being baptized, in the name of Jesus Christ, and being filled with the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in other tongues, to make heaven. If you don't believe me believe the Apostle Peter! (Acts 2:38)

It appears to me that you don't like the plan of salvation that was once delivered to the early church, which started on the Day of Pentecost; when the NT Church was born. Why?
MEE

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Acts 2:38? The Day of Pentecost?
The Day of Pentecost was a one-time event in history never again to be repeated, like the burning bush in Moses day. You will never see that happen either. It was a one-time event, never to be repeated again. In fact, there are only three times in the Book of Acts where individuals spoke in tongues (ch. 2,10,19). Acts is a book of history. It records the history of the acts of the apostles, the growth of the church.
I can show you very simply the plan of salvation through the Book of Acts, as I can through almost any book of the Bible. But you are lost without the Book of Acts. You can't show me the plan of salvation except by using the Book of Acts. Take the Book of Acts out of the Bible, and MEE is lost. She doesn't have salvation or a plan of salvation. John 3:16 becomes meaningless. All the verses in the Book of Romans become meaningless to you without the Book of Acts. These things in themselves demonstrate that your theology is wrong. The books of the Bible do not contradict each other as you have them. Acts does not contradict the rest of the Epistles. You say it does. If it doesn't, then show me the plan of salvation without using the Book of Acts. Don't evade me this time MEE. Do it.
DHK

Originally posted by DHK:

Take the Book of Acts out of the Bible, and MEE is lost.

DHK [/QB]

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No, take the book of Acts out of the Bible and DHK doesn't have a leg to stand on!

The epistles were written to the churches that were born in the book of Acts. Tell me how the apostles wrote to these churches if it wasn't for the happenings recorded in the book of Acts?

MEE

Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:

Take the Book of Acts out of the Bible, and MEE is lost.

DHK

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No, take the book of Acts out of the Bible and DHK doesn't have a leg to stand on!

The epistles were written to the churches that were born in the book of Acts. Tell me how the apostles wrote to these churches if it wasn't for the happenings recorded in the book of Acts?

MEE [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]You have never once answered me in all the times I have asked you. Let's try it again:

Acts does not contradict the rest of the Epistles. You say it does. If it doesn't, then show me the plan of salvation without using the Book of Acts. Don't evade me this time MEE. Do it.
DHK

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Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:

Take the Book of Acts out of the Bible, and MEE is lost.

DHK

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No, take the book of Acts out of the Bible and DHK doesn't have a leg to stand on!

The epistles were written to the churches that were born in the book of Acts. Tell me how the apostles wrote to these churches if it wasn't for the happenings recorded in the book of Acts?

MEE

</font>[/QUOTE]You have never once answered me in all the times I have asked you. Let's try it again:

Acts does not contradict the rest of the Epistles. You say it does. If it doesn't, then show me the plan of salvation without using the Book of Acts. Don't evade me this time MEE. Do it.
DHK

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[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]DHK, look real close to what I'm saying!!! There is not another plan of salvation in the epistles.
The plan of salvation (Acts 2:38) was given, by Peter, in the book of Acts and continues to this day!!!! Never to be changed!!!

The epistles were written to churches that already had repented, been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in other tongues, which is what is required to be in the Bride of Christ!!!

I can't show you another plan of salvation in the epistles, because it's not there!!!

Another thing....I DID NOT say that the book of Acts contradicted the epistles. You are the one that finds another "plan of salvation" in the epistles, which does not match up with Acts.

End of discussion!
MEE

Last September, my new daughter-in-law & her mother both told me that if I haven't spoken-in-tongues, I was going to Hell!

I asked them to show me where that is in the Bible, to which they replied, "It's in there, but you probably just haven't seen it."

I'm still waiting.....

Originally posted by MEE:

I can't show you another plan of salvation in the epistles, because it's not there!!!

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That's quite an admission MEE. The plan of salvation is in almost every book of the New Testament, if not every book of the Bible. The very fact that you cannot show me the plan of salvation in the epistles, where it is explained so thoroughly tells me that you belong to a false cult, that teaches a false gospel. You need Christ. You need to be saved. Put your trust in Christ alone MEE, not in tongues.
DHK

Originally posted by MEE:
...it takes repentance, being baptized, in the name of Jesus Christ, and being filled with the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in other tongues, to make heaven.

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MEE,
Please show us from scripture where 'evidence by speaking in tongues' is written.

Because last I checked, the gift of tongues was one of several 'gifts' of the Spirit, which show 'evidence' of the Spirit.

And don't forget that it is by the FRUIT of the Spirit that we know someone has the Spirit, NOT gifts. Not all believers are given gifts of the Spirit.

Also, tongues is the LEAST of the gifts. Why are you wanting them to be the most important, even to the point of placing salvific importance on them?

There were many in the NT Church which DID NOT speak in tongues.

You know that's true.

Were they lost?

God Bless,
Kelly

So what about the thousands in the Book of Acts that were saved without speaking in tongues?
Did the Ethiopian Eunuch speak in tongues? Was he saved?

MEE,

If you aren't talking about the gift of tongues, then you are talking about a completely man made doctrine.

Trying to convince me of tongues by using the trinity or the rapture is like trying to convince a Muslim that he's wrong by quoting the Koran.

The bible doesn't support the trinity, or a secret rapture, so most likely your false doctrine of whatever your talking about, is not supported in scripture.

You are in a cult. But I would never be so rude to say that you are going to hell.

The ONLY tongues that are given by the Holy Spirit are a gift, so if you are NOT talking about the gift, you are believing a lie.

God Bless your Bible study,
Kelly

Please show us from scripture where 'evidence by speaking in tongues' is written.

**Sigh! It isn't, but then neither is the word Trinity or rapture, but we know what they mean.

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(sigh)

Okay, please pay attention:

Trinity in the Bible:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Rapture in the Bible:
Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

(I don't believe scripture supports a "secret" rapture; I haven't found it, anyway)

Now, as for evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit, I direct you to Galatians 5
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

And that's exactly what telling someone if they haven't spoken in tongues, they're not filled with the Spirit does: Provokes envying.

'Nuff said. I'm outta here.

DHK Writes: """"""I believe that God expects us to use our God-given talents and abilities in the church. Some people, for example have outstanding musical ability, but when they don't use it they lose it. They bury their talent in the sand.

This is different than the gifts of the spirit of the first century. I cannot fully explain how except to say that all of the gifts of the spirit were supernatural. They were not just an extraordinary gift or talent, they were supernaturally given. That is why I believe they have ceased. Many people have the gift of preaching (what you may define as prophecy), but not supernaturally). Many may have a gift for helping people (gift of helps), but not supernaturally. That is a tough gift to explain. But somehow God gave perhaps supernatural strength for some to help people in the church that otherwise would be neglected. I am not sure exactly how it worked. I simply believe that all the gifts of the spirit in the first century were supernaturally given, whereas today they are not. God uses the talents and abilities that we have. He gives more grace as we need it.
DHK """""""


Thanks DHK, I apreciate your answer and the kindness in which it was written. I think you have a "reputation" (with some) for not always showing charity in your posts but I have always thought the man behind the posts was probably a very nice guy. Anyway, back to the question I asked you. What I was getting at is that Paul spends a lot of time in 1 cor. 12 describing the human body and church "body". Showing how the "uncomely" (not sure on spelling) parts are as important, in fact more important then the outward parts. He lets us know how "put together", by God himself, the local "church bodies" are. God give gifts to those how He wills. That is one of the keys to an Assembly being complete. I just can't get past the perfection in this plan, in terms of completeing local assemblies, just being dispanded totally when the Bible was complete.
DHK, please answer again and keep the issue of 1 Cor. 12 in mind, in terms of detail and "perfectness"(is that a word??) of the plan. Thanks brother

In Christian Love,
Brian


Hi Carol, Hi Ed and Bob.

Still waiting for you or even SMM to get me a different interpretation of the 1 cor. 14 verses in question. If I am wrong, and DHK and Walguy, then show us. I give that as a brotherly challange, not as something to provoke a fight

Thanks Brian,
I believe that part of the problem is the whole general context as to who Paul was writing to. He was writing to the local church at Corinth. I do not believe that this chapter has anything to do with what you call "the body of Christ" at large, or the universal church, as some call it. It has only to do with the local church. He was writing to the assembly that was gathered at Corinth.

Take for example verse 26:
1 Corinthians 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

This verse could apply only in a local congregation, not among all believers world-wide. When one member in our assembly suffers, we all suffer. Presently one of our members suffer with a broken leg. Being an older lady she is confined to a hospital bed. We share in her sufferngs. This would not be possible if she was a believer in India or China or South America, where we have no knowledge of the sufferings of those believers. We suffer with those of our own congregation. We rejoice with those of our own congregation. When one of them receives a great blessing we also share in it. It only works in a local church.

Writing to the Corinthians in chapter 1 he says,
1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

They came behind in no gift. This church had them all. Not every church did, but this one did. There was a great manifestation of all the spiritual gifts in the church that was at Corinth.

There were some gifts that were more "showy" than others, notably tongues, interpretion, prophecy, knowledge. There were some gifts that were not so "honourable," or seemingly important. They were the more "uncomely" or humble gifts such as the gift of helps. Paul likens the gifts of the spirit to the body. Not everyone could be the head. If an apostle was the head, not everyone could be an apostle. Not everyone could be a prophet, or a teacher, or speak in tongues. In the same way he says:

1 Corinthians 12:16-17 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

Some of the Corinthians were jealous of some of the others, and not satisfied with the gifts that God had bestowed upon them. The ear wanted to be the eye. But Paul says what if the whole body were made of eyes, then how would it function? What a ridiculous thought that would be? How would it hear, or smell?

1 Corinthians 12:23-24 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:

There are some parts of the body that we bestow more honor. People tend to look you in the eyes first. Your facial features often receive more prominence (honor) then the rest of your body.

whereas our presentable parts have no
such need. (WEB)
Our face does not need to be covered up. But it does need the rest of our body. If it is severed from the rest of the body how will it function? Every part of the body is useful, and has a function.
Every member of the local church is useful, and they have a function to play in the church. We each have our own talents, ablilities to contribute. In the first century, most of them had spiritual gifts, but it doesn't necessarily imply that everyone had a spiritual gift. But everyone had something to contribute to the local church. They were all members of that church, and all had a place, and all could contribute something no matter how small or great it would be.

Why would the church be disbanded when the Bible would be complete.
Like today they would have the Word of God as their basis, their foundation. Therefore they would no longer need the supernatual spiritual gifts. Part of the reason of the supernatural gifts was to show that the message of the Apostles was true and genuine. The Apostles did signs and wonders in the midst of them. The message itself was verified by signs. The message now is verified by the Word of God. We have no need of signs, supernatural gifts. The foundation of all that we believe and do is the Word of God. There would be no need for these gifts to continue past the completed canon of Scripture.
Could you please explain how any of the gifts that operate today, operate in a supernatural way. How the "gift" of helps would differ today, than it would in the first century. If it doesn't then why would Paul even mention it as a gift?
DHK

[ January 20, 2004, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

I am amazed that this thread is STILL going. The same arguments seem to be rehashed over and over.