Clauso Utero

I believe it would be more accurate to say that Baptists and others tend to see the birth of Christ (God incarnate) as concentrating on the deity, and Catholics so concentrate on the method that Christ was born, focus on Mary rather than the Divine Christ--and thus: Mariolotry.
DHK

 

pi ching!!!

[ May 07, 2004, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Briony-Gloriana ]

 

I've never known of a Baptist to argue over it.

I think the scriptural evidence is clear, Jesus "opened the womb" and "Mary brought forth her firstborn son."

These seem clear and there is NO evidence to support anything other than a normal birth.

If, for some unknown reason, the other is true it would certainly not destroy my faith.

 

This baptist believes that Christ's birth was normal at the birthing end, but I will not have to do a lot of theological shuffling around if it turns out when I get to heaven that I learn the birth was also miraculous.

 

Jesus Christ as true man and true God would have come through the birth canal. The Catholic Church sees here the fulfillment of the divine promise given through the prophet Isaiah: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son." Jesus passing through the birth canal would not have violated Mary from being a virgin. Her virginity would have been sanctified, not violated. Clauso Utero is not a teaching of the Catholic Church. It seems to be a teaching of Martin Luther. Of course Mary bore Jesus Christ just as prophecied. She gave birth to Jesus Christ. A virgin shall conceive and bear a son. Jesus Christ didn’t skip the birth process.

 

I would have to disagree. I believe both Baptists and Catholics understand both his 100% humanity and divinity in the birth of Christ.

Mariolotry is a mortal sin in the Catholic faith. Mary is not to be worshipped. I suggest reading "Hail, Holy Queen" as an introductory book to Mary in scripture.

 

Redefining Biblical terms such as idolatry doesnt make it any less a sin. Mary is worshiped, by the very definition (Biblical) of worship. Because the Catholic Church creates their own dichotomy in defining the word worship does not excuse the sin of idolatry. Sin is sin, no matter how you redefine the terms of sin, worship and idolatry. Mariolotry is sin. It is the sin of idolatry.
DHK

 

Numbers 22:31
Then the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, with his drawn sword in his hand. And he bowed down and fell on his face.

Rev. 22:8-9
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."

In both of these instances two people bow down to an angel. Balaam was permitted to do so because he bowed in fear, honor, and reverence. John tried to bow in worship. This was not permitted. So we see that even in the same action, in this case bowing, it may or may not be worship depending on the persons intentions.

Acts 10:25-26
When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am a man."

Same thing. Cornelius tried to worship Peter, so Peter did not allow it. The Pope may allow someone to bow in respect before him, but if the Pope senses the person trying to worship him, he would naturally stop it immediately.

Acts 12:21-23
On an appointed day Herod put on his royal robes, took his seat upon the throne, and delivered an oration to them. And the people were shouting, "The voice of a god, and not of a man!" Immediately an angel of the Lord struck him down, because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and breathed his last.

Herod accepted worship, and thus was struck dead by God.

 

As a former Catholic myself who is now a die hard Baptist, I can tell you that the Catholic Church does NOT worship Mary. Revere to an extreme which is not to my liking, yes, imo. But they don't worship Mary. That's not to say I agree with some concepts like Mary's co-redemptrix nature, bucause I don't, and I think that's biblically inappropriate, but as far as worshipping is concerned, no, they don't worship Mary.

 

As a former Catholic myself who is now a die hard Baptist, I can tell you that the Catholic Church does NOT worship Mary. Revere to an extreme which is not to my liking, yes, imo. But they don't worship Mary. That's not to say I agree with some concepts like Mary's co-redemptrix nature, bucause I don't, and I think that's biblically inappropriate, but as far as worshipping is concerned, no, they don't worship Mary. </font>[/QUOTE]I was a former Catholic too John. I may not have considered it worship of Mary at that time. That is not the point. I must consider it worship now. I didn't know the teachings of the Bible then, as I do now. The Bible considers it idolatry. My opinion, whether as a Catholic or a Baptist doesn't count. It is what the Bible says. Whenever a person says the "Hail Mary" it is worship of Mary, whether they consider it worship or not. "Pray for sinners now." It is praying to the dead to intercede on your behalf (something only Christ can do). It is not asking someong to pray with you or a living person to pray for you. It is asking a dead person to intercede on your behalf--a position only Christ can hold--the difference being that Christ is risen from the dead; he is alive and not dead.
"Holy Mary, mother of God." I don't address others this way. This is worship. This is adoration. God alone is holy. One needs to study about the holiness of God. Is Mary as holy as God is holy. The answer is no. Is Mary, in Heaven, still the mother of God? Absolutely not. That is heresy. She was Christ's human mother while on earth. She provided that function for a certain time in history. Now she is dead, and no longer his mother. She is not the mother of God--an impossibility, and yet she is WORSHIPED as such.
DHK

 

Exactly.

The Bible does not consider the honor of Mary idolatry.

An angel worshipped Mary?

Only Christ can ask the Saints in heaven to ask Him to aid us? Cite your source please. I was under the impression that those in heaven are alive. No longer here on earth, but part of the Church Triumphant in heaven.

Are you saying you are going to remain unholy in heaven? Your still going to keep on sinning?

It's heresy, actually, to split Christ's divinity from his humanity. Mary is not the begat Jesus, but Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary.

 

The medical consequences of pregnancy appear to extend well beyond delivery. Live fetal cells have been found within a mother's circulation decades after she has given birth. This intermixing of very low levels of fetal with the mother's own cells is called microchimerism. There is a good chance that Mary had Jesus Christ’s fetal cells within her decades after Jesus Christ was born. “The Lord has done great things for me and Holy is His name.”

 

"power of the Most High" passed through the barriers of nature without injuring them;

If one is to believe Holy Scripture, as Catholics do, it is accepted that "a virgin shall conceive and bear a son". This in itself is miraculous. Her virginity was not violated by Jesus birth, it was sanctified by the Word of God. This is not to say that Jesus did not come out of the birth canal, that is not a teaching of the Catholic Church. We believe the virgin bore Jesus Christ as prophecied in Holy Scripture.

 

My emphasis was on the word "must" DHK. You have to view it as worship. Because if you don't, it may draw you closer to home. You feel an overwhelming need to prove everything Catholic wrong. Here the Baptistboard has eliminated most of the Catholics who can put up a strong argument, and yet people here keep on their tirade that everything Catholic is evil. Well, as long as it makes you feel better right?

Catholics do not believe Mary is holy as God is Holy. But that doesn't matter does it? Anything to make the Church look bad right?

 

2 Timothy 4:1-2 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

2 Peter 2:1-2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

No, Adam. Not anything to make them look bad. We are commanded to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints--for there are false teachers among you bringing in damnable heresies, and many shall follow their pernicious ways.

This is the obvious and best reason to point out the heresies of the Roman Catholic Church, comparing them to the Bible. The Bible is our standard of truth.
DHK