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Jesus fulfilled the law?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Caissie, Feb 17, 2005.

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  1. Caissie

    Caissie New Member

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    The article was interesting. I did know that you do not need a blood sacrifice to atone for sin. But I do believe that Jesus is the Messiah. I would say that the best book I ever read showing the Jew that Jesus was the Messiah is "The Seven Festivals of the Messiah". You can read the it here: http://www.shalom-crmi.org/html/seventoc.html

    No, I do not know of anyone who makes blood sacrifices. If they did, it looks to me like, they would be breaking the law. Even the article that you posted states that to make a blood sacrifice you must have the temple and a Levite priest.

    I am just wondering...what is your back ground and what are some of your beliefs now? Feel free to email me for further discussion.
     
    #21 Caissie, Feb 20, 2005
  2. mountainrun

    mountainrun New Member

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    Wellll, this thread has gone into the realm of the bizarre so I believe I shall go to another.

    [​IMG] :rolleyes:

    MR
     
    #22 mountainrun, Feb 20, 2005
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    You don't need a blood sacrifice to atone for sin, Caissie? Now THAT is another area why you disagree with being a Baptist.

    Hebrews 9:22 " . . and without shedding of blood is no remission."
     
    #23 Dr. Bob, Feb 23, 2005
  4. Scott_Bushey

    Scott_Bushey <img src=/scott.jpg>

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    Grasshopper,
    What part of Gods law is not in effect????
     
    #24 Scott_Bushey, Feb 25, 2005
  5. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Scott!!! WELCOME BACK!!! Wondered what happened to ya! [​IMG] It's been years!

    LE (formerly known as SE) [​IMG]
     
    #25 LadyEagle, Mar 1, 2005
  6. Scott_Bushey

    Scott_Bushey <img src=/scott.jpg>

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    [​IMG]
    LE,
    Thanks for the generous welcome. I've been busy about the fathers b'iness; you know. Same as you.....
     
    #26 Scott_Bushey, Mar 3, 2005
  7. Archeryaddict

    Archeryaddict New Member

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    the Law was fulfilled when Jesus said "it is finished".
     
    #27 Archeryaddict, Mar 3, 2005
  8. Scott_Bushey

    Scott_Bushey <img src=/scott.jpg>

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    Fulfilled! This does not mean abrogated.
     
    #28 Scott_Bushey, Mar 3, 2005
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    The law still stands (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).

    However it is impossible to keep the Law even if one wanted to do so (as has been mentioned). In 70AD the Temple was razed and the priests were slaughtered without which (Temple and priests), the 613 mitzvoth of the Torah cannot be kept.

    If one fails one point of the Law one fails the whole thing and is cursed.

    Modern Judaism is not biblical Judaism but Talmudic Judaism.

    The Law is a witness and a testimony of our depravity.

    We are not under the Law but are dead to it.

    We walk by faith being made alive by and led of the Spirit.


    HankD
     
    #29 HankD, Mar 3, 2005
  10. here now

    here now Member

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    We are no longer under the law.
     
    #30 here now, Mar 3, 2005
  11. CYBERDOVE

    CYBERDOVE New Member

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    JESUS fufilled the law---HE is our HIGH PRIEST-----we do not have to make yearly sacrifices---HE shed HIS BLOOD for us!.The scriptures saids- ONE GREATER than Moses and the law has come. JESUS said HE came to fulfill the law and if HE wasnt telling truth than we r in the BIGGEST TROUBLE!!!!. JESUS reconciled man with the FATHER and now we do not have go thru those legal type steps to Worship HIM, if JESUS has not fulfilled the law then we are worshiping HIM in vain. ----and I believe JESUS when HE said 'It is finished'.-------Oh what a WONDERFUL GOD we serve
     
    #31 CYBERDOVE, Mar 4, 2005
  12. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    This topic has been moved by request of Caissie, since he is restricted to post in non-baptist areas only.
     
    #32 Dr. Bob, Mar 9, 2005
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    OF course you would "need" a text that says "by fulfilling the Law Jesus made it of no effect" in scripture -- to actually support the point you want to make.

    Sadly for your argument - no such text exists in all of scripture.

    And "of course" it is obvious that Jesus perfectly fulfilled the Law of God that says we should Love God with all of our heart (Deut 6:5) and Love our Neighbor as ourselves (Lev 19:18).

    A "perfect" example where "fulfill" can not be bent to mean "abolish" or "make of no effect". Nor can it be turned to mean "the Christian should pay no attention to this part of God's Word since it was fulfilled perfectly by Christ".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #33 BobRyan, Mar 9, 2005
  14. Caissie

    Caissie New Member

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    I believe that God made some “loop holes”. (Because I believe the whole Bible)

    Here are two examples in the law where you could make an “atonement” for your sins without blood being spilled:
    Exodus 30:16 And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.


    Leviticus 5:11 But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering.

    It looks to me, by looking at the Bible, if a person was not able to bring two turtledoves or two pigeons, the he could bring some flour for a sin offering. I have heard of squeezing blood from a turnip, but never heard of getting blood out of flour.

    Here is an example of Jesus forgiving someone’s sins before he was crucified and without an animal sacrifice.

    Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

    Again, I believe that all sin was/is/will be atoned if it is repented of though Jesus’ blood. So, that means that Hebrews is not in error.


    I attended Baptists churches for many years. I have never heard that their official doctrine is that you must have a blood sacrifice every time. If they do believe this, then how do they (or you) “explain away” the above verses?
     
    #34 Caissie, Mar 9, 2005
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    There are in fact many many such examples of complete and absolute forgiveness before the cross.

    The MOST glaring of which is Moses, Enoch and Elijah.

    Moses and Elijah appear WITH CHRIST in glorified form in Matt 17.

    Enoch and Elijah taken directly to heaven without dying!

    And of course the many Gospel references where Christ said "your sins ARE forgiven".

    Furthermore - the Matt 18 story of "forgiveness revoked" is BASED on the "fact" of real forgivenss having ALREADY been given.

    In John 3 the new birth is said by Christ to ALREADY be an established fact.

    In Heb 11 we see saints "fully accepted by God" some of whom go to heaven without dying.

    In Daniel 9 - the chapter starts with Daniel asking for forgiveness of sins for HIS sins and for the sins of his people without priest OR sacrifice!

    This is because as Heb 10 points out - "the blood of animals could NEVER take away sin". ALL forgivenss (real and full) received in the OT was ONLY via the ONE Gospel "preached to US JUST as it was to THEM also" , only "by grace through faith", ONLY because of the blood of Christ -- the future death of CHRIST.

    In the OT it was FULL forgiveness because God is not limited by time. Romans 4 - God calls those things that are not as though they ARE!!

    Our God is truly "big enough" to solve the problem.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #35 BobRyan, Mar 10, 2005
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    BTW - Many thanks to Dr. Bob for moving this here.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #36 BobRyan, Mar 10, 2005
  17. Caissie

    Caissie New Member

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    Please answer these questions


    Read here: http://www.biblestuff.freerovin.com/photo.html to see how Jesus fulfilled the shadow of the Passover before going further.


    A few more questions:

    1. Why will we be keeping the feast of tabernacles after Jesus returns to earth? (Did Jesus abolish this law only to have it reinstated? ) [Zechariah 14:16]

    2. Why will God kill people who eat pork after Jesus returns [Isaiah 66:17]

    3. Why will we be keeping the sabbath after Jesus returns [Isaiah 66:23]

    4. Why did Paul go to the temple to make offerings to God even after Jesus’ resurrection?

    5. Why did Paul have to go to a feast if the law was abolished “I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem [Acts 18:21]”?

    6. What are the shadows of the Feast of Trumpets and the Feast of Tabernacles, and when were they (or when will they be) fulfilled and by whom?

    7. If all we have to do is love one another then are the following things sins:
    a. smoking dope
    b. smoking cigarettes
    c. drinking blood
    d. fornication

    8. What was the purpose of the law? (I heard from many that the purpose of the law was just so we would fail to keep it and therefore need a savior, but I do not buy that)

    9. Let us look at the next verse (Matthew 5:19): Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Now, we know that when Jesus says "least commandments" he can not be referring to what he called the "greatest commandments" which is "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." and "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." So, what are the least commandments?
     
    #37 Caissie, Mar 12, 2005
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 66 only says that "ALL MANKIND" will be keeping Sabbath "IN the new Heavens and New Earth".

    It does not say that mankind WILL be eating pork and rats at that time. Rather it says that those who prior to that time - were eating the "rats, cats, dogs and bats" will be judged. It never talks of them doing that "in the New Earth" or "in the New Heavens".

    In Mark 2:27 Christ said the Sabbath was "made for MANKIND" so it is not surprising that MANKIND is observing it in the New Earth in Isaiah 66.

    In Heb 10:4-11 we see that the sacrifices end at the cross and so the Lev 23 annual feasts that are "centered on sacrifices" also end (become optional).

    In Acts - Paul never lessens the need for Jews (even Christian Jews)to follow the law of God. But he argues AGAINST the sacrifices as having continue authority/need/purpose/use in his writings.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #38 BobRyan, Mar 12, 2005
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Zech 14 references some aspects of the 2nd coming and of the post-millenial acts of God - but mixes them with pre-second-coming ideas.

    We see the same thing in Zech 9 regarding Christs first coming where at that time He is suppose to rule from sea to sea according to chapter 9 and 10.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #39 BobRyan, Mar 12, 2005
  20. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    8. What was the purpose of the law?

    What law? Each law has a different purpose. This is an example of sloppy writing in the manner of St Paul's sloppy writing. A covenant is a contract. The Noahic Covenant was an imposed contract on all humans. The Mosiac Covenant was a social contract for the Land of Israel that was voluntarially agreed to by the people who came with Moses. It makes no reference to gentiles living outside the Land.
     
    #40 billwald, Mar 12, 2005
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