Catholic salvation Vol II.......

Well, we were advised that that Catholic salvation thread is about to be archived, or obliterated, or whatever happens to them here.(I'm relativly new to this site ) So...in case it is gone before my adressee sees my reponse to him, I thought I'd start VII.(Any others that want to continue can as well, or course)

Brother Adam,

I indicated that I spend considerable time in sources like the Catholic Encyclopedia, online Catechism, Catholic apologetic web-sites, and the Vatican web-site, and then you said...

Yes, we do.

I really think you have just identified your problem. You told me that you go to the official CC sources as I do, and you said you go and "ask them" about their beliefs and "give them the benefit of the doubt".

Well, when you ask them do you think they are going to say this to you?...

"Yes Adam, let me explain to you how we distort the gospel into gospel of works that will not save, and how we worship the mere human being Mary."

Of course not.

You left out the most important part...

Dig into their doctrines and practices, ask them about what they believe, and after you listen to them(giving them the benefit of the doubt), then compare what they believe practice and promote with Gods only truth source, His scriptures.

If it contradicts, it must be rejected.

And by the way, do you give us the same "benefit of the doubt" that you give them? Those of us like myself, Singer, Bob Ryan and many others, do you think of us as "those hateful Catholic bashers" who are nothing more than Jack Chick groupies?(I personally do not care for his tract style, btw)

Or do you keep as an option the possibility that we just might be right?

God bless,

Mike

 

(Here is another from the thread that is closing...)

Michelle,

Greetings to you.

You said...

You may not worship Mary, I dont know, and you obviously dont believe the CC does. You probably feel that since they use a completly different word for it(Dulia, or Hyperdulia worship, rather than "Latria" worship), that that turns it into merely veneration, and makes everything OK.

Let me ask you this. Do you believe, as I do, that every day in the baby extermination centers here in the US that little babies are being legally killed?

What if a representitive of that baby extermination center said to you "Why, we are not killing babies here! We are "eliminating" a "product of conception". Dont you see?"

Would you say "Oh. Well, that clears that up. I was wrong"

Of course not.

The Catholic church is not going to go around telling people they are worshipping Mary, but they are promoting the worship of Mary, none the less. Millions worship her.

Here is a prayer that was prayed by Pope Pius XII, in 1950...

"Enraptured by the splendour of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world we cast ourselves into your arms, O immaculate mother of Jesus, and our mother Mary, confident of finding in you our most loving heart, and your most loving heart, the appeasement of our ardent desire and a safe harbour from the tempest which besets us on every side. Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery we adore and praise the purest richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature. From the moment of your conception until the day in which, after your assumption into heaven, he crowned you Queen of the Universe. Crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with eternal truths, fragrant lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell. O well beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Bend tenderly, O Mary, over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed, comfort the poor and the humble, quench hatred, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the holy church. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognise that they are all brothers. Receive, O most sweet mother, our humble supplication above all obtained for us, that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are all beautiful, O Mary, you are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honour of our people.

Michelle, I would not pray that prayer if I were told to in front of a firing squad.

Here are 2 official Catholic prayers that are clearly saying things in prayer to Mary, that should only be said to Almighty God...

The Memorare

Remember, O most loving Virgin Mary,
that never was it known that anyone
who fled to your protection,"

It is Amighty God to whom we are to flee for protection.(Psalm 125:2, just one among multitudes)

We are never told to flee to a mere human being in heaven, like Mary, instead of God.

"...implored your help,
or sought your intercession was left unaided."

Jesus Christ is our heavenly intercessor(Romans 8:34, just one among multitudes), not the sinner saved by grace Mary.

"Inspired with this confidence, we turn to you,
O Virgin of virgins, our Mother."

We are never instructed to "turn to" Mary for our heavenly protection, but to God Almighty.(John 16:33, just one among multitudes.)

"To you we come, before you we stand,
sinful and sorrowful."

The one to who a lost sinner is accountable regarding their sinful and lost condition is Almighty God, not Mary.(Isaiah 45:23, one among multitudes)

The one to whom a child of God is to come for help with sin problems is Almighty God, not Mary.(Romans 14:12, one among multitudes)

"O Mother of the Word Incarnate,
do not despise our petitions,
but in your mercy hear us and answer us.

Amen."

Our petitions are to be taken to Almighty God, in the name of Jesus Christ. Not Mary.(Phillipians 4:6, one among multitudes)

Hail Holy Queen

There is no "Holy Queen" to whom we are to "Hail". There is a "King of Kings, and Lord of Lords", but no Queen.(Revelation 19:16)

In the old testament the "Queen of Heaven" is mentioned a few times, and she is anything but godly.(Jeremiah 44:15-17)

"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,..."

The scriptures identify God as being the "God of all mercy".(Ephesians 2:4)

"...our life, our sweetness and our hope!"

Almighty God is identified as being our "life",(Collosians 3:4) and our "hope".(1 Timothy 1:1)

"To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve;"

We are to cry out to God, not Mary.(Luke 18:7)

"to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping
in this valley of tears."

It is to God Himself that we are directed to call upon in our time of need.(Romans 10:14, one among multitudes)

"Turn then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us,..."

The Lord Jesus Christ is our advocate, not Mary.(1 John 2:1)

"...and after this our exile,
show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus."

Well, we have an example of one person for sure who has seen the resurrected Lord in glory, John, the human instrument through whom God wrote the book of revelation. And Mary was not needed in any way to "show" Jesus Christ to Him.

And by the way, when Mary...supposedly..."shows" Jesus to someone in heaven, will Jesus be a helpless little baby being held in His triumphant mothers arms? I only ask because of all those multitudes and multitudes of Catholic and EOC paintings that depic Mary and Jesus that way in heaven.

Michelle, these prayers are idolatrous and are an abomination. And these are just the proverbial "tip of the iceberg", as they say. We havent even gotten into the apparitions and visitations and shrines and pilgrimages and processions through the streets holding up an idol of Mary to be adored and worshipped by the thousands upon thousands participating in these processions.

It is sickening, and I cannot imagine how it must sicken, and sadden God.

God bless,

Mike

 

mioque,

For the life of me, I cant find a word starting with B that would be so offensive. What are you referring to?

I didnt say he was right about everything. I even said I dont like cartoon tracts. Concerning Jack Chick, I have heard people say that some of his tracts get into communism and stuff like that. Also, people have told me about someone, cant remember his name but some Alberto person. I dont know anything about those tracts either.

I'm not familiar with any of those things, but concerning his regular catholic tracts, I have never read one of those kind that I thought he was in error about. The things he believes are wrong about the CC I believe are in fact wrong.

But I dont like his style.

When I asked Adam if he considers that "we" might be right, I meant those who argue against some of the CC beliefs and practices on here...not Jack Chick. I have not read all of Jack Chicks tracts.

God bless,

Mike

 

Brother Adam,

1st of all, I was born and raised Catholic. 8 years of parochial school, religion class, mass every Sunday, catechism, teen classes(CCD, or something like that), etc.

Concerning catholics not worshipping Mary, because they say they dont worship Mary, let me ask you the same thing I asked Michelle...

I assume you believe abortion is the killing of a small child. If you ask someone from the baby extermination centers how they can kill little babies, they are going to say "We are not killing babies". Are you going to say "Oh. I'm sorry, I thought you were. Hey everybody, they're not killing babies, because they just told me they arent!"

Its silly.

They will even say its not a baby, its a "product of conception". Does that make it all OK?

How do we know they are killing babies? Because we know the truth, regardless of what they say, and because we have seen the evidence...the little baby parts(little legs, arms, etc) that they throw away.

Concerning Mary, we have the evidence. I have posted some of the prayers. We have seen the shrines, the processions, the "adoration", the excessive "veneration", the paintings, the images...and the way the images are treated, etc.

We do not judge things by "what people say". O.J. Simpson said he didnt kill his wife, yet we all know the truth. Clinton said "I never had sexual relations with that woman, Ms Lewinski, not even once." yet we all know the truth.

We judge things by holding them up against the word of God and rejecting that which contradicts.

God bless,

Mike

 

BrotherAdam,

I'm not sure what you mean. Could you clarify that a bit?

Thanks.

Gotta get to work, be back later.

Blessings to all,

Mike

 

BrotherAdam,

You said...

Because the official positions of the CC regarding Mary go waaaay beyond simply expressing admiration for her. They adress her as if she were a goddess.

They attribute to her powers and protections that only God can provide, in effect making her into a goddess. They kneel before her statues and kiss her feet. They carry images of her in processions through the streets of cities for thousands to sing her praises. The most famous catholic prayer, worldwide, is of course the Rosary. In it there are 150 prayers prayed repetitiously to Mary, compared to about 15 to Almighty God. Does that not seem a bit "out of wack" to you, if the CC worships God, but only admires Mary?

I have shared official CC sanctioned prayers articulated to Mary, and gone through them sentance by sentance, and shown that the scriptures identify Almighty God as being the one to whom those sentiments and requests are to be directed to, yet they are all directed to the mere human being Mary.

Simply telling millions of catholics, worldwide, in all time zones, that they can pray to Mary at any time credits Mary with omnipresence, and attribute that no mere human being has...only God.

Let me share again the testimonies of some exceedingly prominant Catholics concerning Mary, that Bob Ryan posted. Please prayefully consider whether this is appropriate...

"Mary is all powerful with her divine Son who grants all graces to mankind through her" - Pope Benedict XV, Fausto Appetente Die

"All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth that at the command of Mary all obey, even God. Alphonsus de Liguori, Roman Catholic Cardinal and "saint", from his book The Glories of Mary

"Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; The Glories of Mary. (pp 180-181)

"She is omnipotent, because by her prayers she obtains whatever SHE wills. (The Glories of Mary pp 182)

"With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because,
while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race." - Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus

These things are exceedingly problematic and inappropriate. If the word "worship" bothers you(although I do not know how anyone can miss that Mary is being worshipped), then I'll say it another way.

This is IDOLATRY. These things are idolatrous and are an abomination.

And these are not some excentric Catholics over in a corner somewhere. These are Popes and highly regarded Catholic thinkers and theologians. The prayers I posted earlier are officially sanctioned catholic prayers. The Rosary is as official as anything can be in the Catholic world.

The Catholic Church sponsers the processions of Mary idolatry, the kissing of the feet of statues of Mary, and the veneration of paintings of Mary, and gives their "blessing" to all of the Mary apperitions, visitations and shrines devoted to her.

It is highly improper. It is idolatrous.

God bless,

Mike

 

Meercat,

Please refer to my post just above this one to Adam. It should cover your post as well.

God bless,

Mike