A Birth Control Quiz

Smoking of Pot leads to more adictive drugs like Cocaine and Heroine.

Pastor Larry's response would be: not always so we can make absolutely no conection at all ever.


I hate to bring this question up Larry but is child pornography forbidden by the Bible? I simply don't see it in the text anywhere. Now of course we know we cannot lust after women but it never says so about children now does it. (Don't worry folks I am not advocating anything here by a long shot but Larry's "the Bible doesn't explicitly say stupidity needs to be exposed for what it is"). Child pornography is a wicked evil vile thing Larry. Biblical concepts allow us to recognize that. Now you will say "oh well it's illegal" WHY IS IT ILLEGAL LARRY. Because it, though not explictly stated in scripture is written on the hearts of men. Same with contraceptioin. It is anti-life. It feeds mens weakness and causes a calous attitude against children. I get it every day that I bring my 7 to the grocery store. "don't you know how to stop that". You, Larry, are a false teacher.
You know it is wrong! Fess up.

God bless all

 

It is nowhere written on my heart that birth control which does not result in abortion is morally wrong.

 

I agree with you Dr. Calvin. Hubby had a vasectomy almost 27 years ago. We've never regretted it or felt any guilt about that decision.

Diane

 

Diane, just as a matter of perspective, how do you feel about tattoos or body piercings?

 

I have pierced ears. Didn't like the large baubles women wore when I was growing up. Only one hole per ear for me tho.

Our 27 (in Jan.) year old son has a large tattoo on his left arm. It's quite pretty but I'd never have one.

What in the world would that have to do with abortifants!!

Diane

 

I was just curious because I think most Baptists would be against tattoos and body piercings on the grounds that they desecrate their body which is a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

I would think that the same sort of thinking would apply to elective surgery which would alter the natural God given functions of the body.

Like I say, just curious.

 

So would you go and have a tooth pulled, Ron ?

 

Mark 7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand: 15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. 16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. 17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable. 18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; 19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? 20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

 

Sure, if there was no alternative such as a filling or a root canal, or whatever.

How is having a rotten toothe extracted a desecration of the body which is a Temple of the Holy Spirit?

In what way is the natural function of the body violated by removing a tooth which ceases to serve it's intended purpose?

What is your point?

 

This is the type of unethical argument that calls into question your integrity in this discussion. You know very well that I have never said that. This is highly offensive to me and it should be to you. There is no call whatsoever for this type of argument because you know as well as I and everyone else that I have not said that there is no connection at all. In fact, I earlier said I believed that marijuana was a gateway drug. Besides that, it is illegal.

You cannot carry on a polite debate if you are going to use these types of methods. I have gone out of my way to make sure I say what other people would say about themselves. I might fully disagree and I have no problem pointing out where I disagree. But I have accomplished nothing if I put words in someone else's mouth.

Use this rule of thumb: Say about your opponent only what he would say about himself.

Again, this is a shameless twisting of my words when I have already explicitly refuted this. I have never said that the Bible has to be explicit about every single sin. To call my argument "stupidity" as you have done shows that you have not read what I have said. You are making stuff up. Even in your religion, that is a sin.

Let me be clear once again since you have missed it before: I do not believe that the Bible explicitly identifies everything that is sin. The Bible does not to explicitly say something is sin for it to be sin.

Now, if you have any questions about that, feel free to ask. If I have been unclear about it, ask me and I will clarify. Since I have said this before and you have twisted my words, an apology from you is in order. Do not twist my words and do not ignore what I have said.

No kidding. I agree with both of these and it is wrong because biblical concepts show us that. But you jump a huge gap when you say, "Same with contraceptioin." This is a non-sequiter. I could say "The same with teh Cahtolic church" and I would be on more sound ground than you are. I can show you from Scripture where the Catholic church is in violation of Scripture. You cannot show me anyplace where contraception is.

As I told Carson, your assertions do not mean anything. You must use support from Scripture to argue for a position.

No it isn't. This is ludicrous.

No it doesn't. Not for me anyway.

I have taught nothing falsely as is evidenced by your inability to use Scripture to show any principles that I have violated. Your own mind is not the authority for anyone else here. Your own mind has twisted my words and made up my arguments. I resent that. I don't make up your arguments. You have operated as your conscience will allow you before God. Good for you. God through the Holy Spirit and his word has given me freedom to operate otherwise. You are not the Holy Spirit and you should not act like it.

If you want to discuss Scripture, then let's discuss it. Show us where contraception violates a biblical principles. It doesn't have to be explilcit. It does have to be biblical. To say that contraception is anti-life shows me that you are not thinking clearly. You are biased. That is fine. I really don't care what you do with your wife about this matter. It doesn't matter to me. What matters is the misuse of Scripture and the failure to argue your point from Scripture.

 

>>I was just curious because I think most Baptists would be against tattoos and body piercings on the grounds that they desecrate their body which is a Temple of the Holy Spirit.
I would think that the same sort of thinking would apply to elective surgery which would alter the natural God given functions of the body.<<


Wow, I'm really not sure how take this. I am a 34 year old Christian woman, I have my ears peirced-3 on one side, 2 on the other, I have a belly button piercing, 2 tattoos, and my dh and I use birth control. Recently, he brought up the idea of getting a vascetomy.

Now, what does any of that have to do with Baptist's?

As far as elective surgery, depending on what it is, why not. There may be some that I "personally" would not go for, but if given the means to afford it, there are a few that I would-Lasik, tummy tuck and lipo come to mind.

What does one's denomination have to do with those personal choices.

As to Birth Control, I think that is a decision-in a Christian marriage-that is between God, hubby and wife, and NNE else. What may be good for one couple, may not work for others. Not to mention their reasons that they may have for using it in the first place, many of which may be personal.

 

The tooth is a gift from God, right ? You are questioning a vasectomy as sin, but it looks like a perfectly good way for a couple to enjoy sex, and not create life doing it.

I just don't agree with your stance on birth control.

As far as tatoos, and peircings, those are O.T. laws, and you could argue that we aren't under the law anymore, we are under grace.

I have a tatoo on my left shoulder, a rather large one, I got in Australia in 1981. I won't get another one, and it's because of what I have read since becoming saved. I also took my earring out, and I believe it was the Holy Spirit moving me to do so. But that's me, and I won't worry about what anyone else does.

As a side note, I have a sister who was a champion kick boxer, 3rd degree black belt, and she has some tatoos that I have to say are just beautiful. I think it came with the territory, as most of them have an Oriental feel. I really don't see anything wrong with them. She doesn't wear earrings, for obvious reasons.

 

Except the promises that were made such as restoration to the land in peace and those kinds of things. Israel is broken because of their rejection. Zechariah sides with Jeremiah and Ezekiel (and Paul and myself) that ethnic Israel will be restored to the land (cf. Zech 12).

Notice here how Israel is distinct from the church. Virtually every commentator I have seen takes "so all Israel will be saved" as referring to time.

Sure ... it's easy. Jeremiah 31 refers the NC to the house of Israel and Judah, of which we Gentiles are not a part. However, salvation is a part of the NC. It is not the totality of the NC.

"12 tribes" is a figure of speech for the nation of Israel. It does not require distinction between the 12. James writes to them specifically, not excluding Gentiles but focusing on the 12 tribes, much as Paul wrote to a particular church without excluding others.

And I would propose to you that the church is completely distinct from Israel, because the NT indicates such.

Forgive my haste. I have seen many people adjust Scripture to fit their position. In general, I do give people the benefit of the doubt. My haste was due to what I perceive to be a misuse of Scripture on many parts, something I am sure you believe about me.

It is not the "old nation of Israel." It is the nation of Israel, and Paul always had a deep affection for them.

Okay ... I am sure we will disagree on that. The point is that the Jews and Gentiles are no longer divided; they are united in the church. Does does not negate the promises already made however and that is where I think your position is faulty.

There is a consistent effort on the part of covenant theologians to redefine words that they do not like. You have fallen prey to that. There is no lack of generosity intended. There was a simply point being made that we cannot just dispense with the words and pretend they mean something else. Again, this is a consistent problem for covenantalists.

But the testimony of history is mixed and is not authoritative.

Not really. Dispensationalism goes back much further than that. It is a completely biblical approach. The "less than 2 centuries" you refer to is the formal systematization of it. By that standard, covenantalism does not go back very far either. The 70 weeks involves nothing more than understanding who Daniel is writing to. The problem created by the gap is far less of a problem that the problem created without it. Trust me, I have seen probably all the explanations of it ...

All in all, this discussion is rather unproductive because of the vastly different approaches that we have ...

 

Actually, Pastor Larry, I am learning quite a bit from your discussion with Mr. Carson. I hope the two of you are willing to continue it.

Our church teaches dispensationalism...which I only now learned the definition of...for exactly Pastor Larry's reasons.

Of course, if you truly believe the discussion unproductive, please ignore this comment.

 

I meant Carson Weber. (Sorry...I've never seen Carson as a first name before.)

 

Do you know what Diane and Calvin. I bet alot of people would say the very same thing about abortion pills that are abortificants. The problem is they have not had it explained to them in such a way that there conscience is convicted of it. The other problem is that our consciences become compromised by our lifestyles. Our minds become closed and hearts become hard to what God has written on them. I know many men who have been casterated like breeding Cattle that do have a guilty conscience about it. We casterate men like pigs for butcher. My wife still feels guilty for asking me to get fixed like dog. I made a comment about another person and she asked me to not bring it up again as it still bothers her that she asked me to some years ago. I had not mentioned it to her and had even forgotten.
Further when I talk about my seven kids I have many men start talking about the vassectomies in a way that I know they are feeling guilt and remorse.
The fact that those of you who are against ABC (artificial Birth Control for Pastor Larry's sake) are back trying to justify your position once again is further proof. Why are they trying to convince me if you are so correct in what they have done. In truth they have rejected the blessings that God had planned for they. They have denied life to children he wanted to bring in to this world to increase the love in their household. More children don't divide love, they multiply it from my experience. They have missed an opportunity to grow in purity that God had planned for them. They have lost an opportunity for his grace in their lives.

Blessings though.

[ November 07, 2003, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]