Pre-Age of Reason children.

Quote by Thess~
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Does a child have some sort of faith at birth. I don't know. I do believe that according to Romans 2:15 that he has planted his laws on each man's heart.
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Thess~ I found this also.
In Zechariah 12:1 ~The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Psalms 22:9 ~ But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. (Kinda young huh?)

Theres more verses, but these two verses proves to me, that not only are the laws written on our hearts, but that the Lord gives us faith also (ie Davids hope/faith) (also look up law of faith in the concordance) and surely every good thing that we need while we were being formed in the womb.

Quote by Thess~
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So I do believe that children understand far more than we give them credit for. Whatever level they understand however must be nourished by the parents.
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Amen

Mark 10:14-15
But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them,
Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
15
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

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Have a great day!
Music4Him

 

It does not change the fact that not only are infants incapable of abstract concepts like faith - so also are small children not capable of such a thing as spiritual "faith" or repentance from sin.

It is interesting how the discussion always gets back to those who "turn a blind eye to what Peter said" about Baptism and WHAT saves.

And also - the discussion gets down to "stating the obvious" about the faith of infants not being there at all.

The quotes you gave DO show one significant thing. The forming of the physical structure AND the forming of the spirit WITHIN are two different things.

In the Psalms it is said of the Messiah "Behold I come.. a Body you have prepared for Me".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,
Maybe I misunderstood you, but are you saying that little children don't go to heaven cause they have not confessed Christ unto salvation and got a baptizim like 1Peter 3:21 spoke about?
Heres some questions:
1.Is a child suppost to know the law?
2.Does a child (now I'm talking a "child mentality" here that don't know how to read or write with understanding, and/or reason yet) do they keep the law?
3.Before Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil wern't they without sin because they knew no sin? Then what about a child, until they are told that something that they have done is sin how are they judged?

When Jesus spoke to the scribes and pharisees in Matt.23:23 saying that they ommited the weighter matters of the law, judgement, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Just think about it.....
1Cor. 13:11 ~
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
But until we become men/women.....
~Matt.18:1-5
1
At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2
And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5
And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

Music4Him

 

I think the question at hand correlates with the passage being discussed; in this way:

The passage(s) as a complete thought and sentence is:

(1Pet 3:20-22) In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

To me this is a weighty passage in that it sets the stage for how baptism was viewed (ultimately or at the start)by the church.

It references the water that saved Noah (a water that the earth was immersed in)(also remember how sin covered the earth, and how the earth is a type of man: in that God formed Adam from the dust of the earth.)).
But this water that Peter is describing does not save in an exclusive physical manner: that is not the same way that Noah was saved and "not (by) the removal of dirt"; but is somehow related to "the pledge of a good conscience toward God." Some interpretations have "appeal" or "response" or "answer" of a good conscience.

So we have the water of Baptism having some impact as to our conscience be directed to God.

What I think is important to consider is: How would the pledge, answer or response of a good conscience toward God be realized in the first place?

Perhaps we could agree that we as individuals have as our primary guide our own individual conscience. Some may be tempted to say that the Bible is our guide , or the Holy Spirit, or the Church, etc., but I would argue that those are the influences of a properly and fully developed conscience.

So if the end result is a answer or pledge of a good conscience; that would say.

1.) That by the influence and work of the Holy Spirit that the conscience was developed to ultimately become "good". (Please note in the above examples of influences of ones conscience that the Holy Spirit is the only one not subject to our own ability or inability to rationalize it as an influence)

and,
2) That as it was now "good", it would by necessity become pledged or answer, or respond to God. (That's the ultimate purpose for it being good)

The teaching of Baptism has always been viewed as a means of entry into the Family of God, an initiation into a life of Grace. As seen throughout the bible the Holy Spirit is always associated with the physical presence of the waters of Baptism;
i.e.) Jesus said "I will baptize with water and the Spirit" and the numerous examples of the receiving of the Holy Spirit by those that have been or will be baptized (as a norm, but not exclusively)

As a type in the OT we also see evidence of the Spirit of God working in association with the cleansing water or prefigurement of baptism and man as God's creation is either involved directly or is symbolized.
i.e. Notice how when the earth is formed how God's Spirit hovers over the waters. (hovers like a dove one might say)The earth is brought forth from the water and God is well-pleased. God proceeds in creating Adam from the dust of the earth.
In the case of Noah and the ark, we see the earth is covered in sin, and subsequently immersed in water to wipe out this sin,... and a dove is sent out to confirm or give evidence that the earth has been restored. (Again earth as a symbol of mankind, water to wipe out sin, and the dove as a symbol of the Spirit that hovers out over the water and provide a sign or seal of the restoration of the earth/man.)

And in the case of Christ's very own baptism we have Christ as the new Adam the first born of a new creation, the water obviously and the Holy Spirit descends like a dove. And God the Father pronounces Jesus as His Son, in whom he is well pleased. In like manner through our baptisms we are pronounced as children of the family of God in whom He is well pleased.

Now the reason I say that the referenced passage is weighty and serves as a means to understand how the church has viewed Baptism is because the belief involves the teaching that:

1.) The Holy Spirit is received in Baptism
2.) That the influence of the Holy Spirit on the conscience is a process and not a instantaneuos transformation. (it involves our free-will response to the Holy Spirit, coupled occasionally with our intellect being developed etc.)
and
3.) That because it is a process; that the withholding of the Holy Spirit even from those who can not comprehend through their own intellect, would be presumptious of the Grace of God.

All this ties in nicely with the Covenantal view of the family of God and how infants at 8 days old were initiated/entered into the OT covenantal Family of God. As well as the teaching that "nothing impure can enter the Kingdom of Heaven", and that it is in becoming adopted sons of God that like His only Son Jesus we participate in His death (in our case our death to self etc.) and His resurrection.

Blessings
Steve