Would You Fellowship?

Gershom · Aug 27, 2004

Please read this doctrinal statement and answer whether you agree with it or no, marking which sections you do not agree with, and then give a "yea" or "nay" toward fellowship.

I will post the distinctives at a later date.



We believe in the Triune God

– the Eternally Self-Existent, "I AM", the Creator of heaven and earth and Redeemer of mankind manifested in three persons; Almighty Father, Divine Son and Holy Ghost. (Genesis 1:1, John 5:7, John 1:1, 4:24, Matthew 10:20, II Corinthians 3:17-18).



We believe in the Bible as the inspired, infallible Word of God

- inerrant in the original autographs and the only rule of faith, guide for practice and indisputable and ultimate authority of the Revelation of God, His Will and His Way. (II Timothy 3:16-17, Psalms 19:7-11, 2 Peter 1:16-21).



We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ

- the incarnation of the Father, born of a virgin, very God of every God for, and by whom all things were created (I John 1:1-10).



We believe in the substitutionary atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ

- that He, by the grace of God tasted death for every man and that all must be born again through faith in Him or are forever lost. Redemption is accomplished by the cross and blood of our Lord. Jesus Christ, by grace through faith, believing in the heart that God raised Him from the dead. Salvation is by Jesus Christ and none other for God has highly exalted Him and given a name, which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, earth and those under the earth. We further believe that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father. (Hebrews 2:9, John 3:1-18, John 6:44-49, Ephesians 2:8, Romans 10:9, Philippians 2:9-11).



We believe in the physical resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ

- that He ascended bodily into the heaven and is now at the right hand of the Father as our Mediator, High Priest and Advocate. (Acts 3:12-26, John 20, Hebrews 9:24, I Corinthians 15:12-28).



We believe in water baptism and Holy Communion – The Lord's Supper

- as the ordinances of the church to be observed as public declaration of salvation through Jesus Christ and the commemoration of His death, burial and resurrection in victory over satan, death, hell and the grave. (Matthew 3:11,14, 26:26-29, Luke 22:17-23).



We believe in the personal, visible, imminent return of Jesus Christ

- both for His Saints and with His Saints in reign to victory. (I Thessalonians 4:13-18, Corinthians 15:50-55, Revelation 19:19-20, 20:1-6).



We believe in the authority of the believer over the enemy satan and the victory

- to be gained by the exercise of that authority in the areas of deliverance, healing and holiness. (Ephesians 1:20-23, 6:10-7).



We believe in the personality and reality of satan

- as the enemy of the Kingdom of God, Saints of God and of the Lord; and in his ultimate defeat by the Lord Jesus Christ and potential defeat in the lives of spirit filled believers clothed in the Armor of God. (Revelation 12:9-10, Matthew 4:2-11, Isaiah 14:12-17, John 8).



We believe in the autonomy of the local church

- as an independent entity with regard to matters of government, polity operation and discipline. (I Corinthians 5:5, II Thessalonians 3:6, 14-15, Acts 11:22, Titus 1:5).

Gershom · Aug 27, 2004

C'mon, peeps. Help me out here...

Gina B · Aug 27, 2004

I don't agree with the Holy Communion thing or with the one that sounds like a belief in other gods or in the bible alone as a testimony to the truth.
I'd have to have more explanation on these things to make an informed decision, but if it was a church I'd not make it a point to attend there. I wouldn't deny such a believer as a friend, but I don't deny unbelievers as friends either so it's not really saying much either way.
Gina

Marcia · Aug 27, 2004

We believe in the Triune God
– the Eternally Self-Existent, "I AM", the Creator of heaven and earth and Redeemer of mankind manifested in three persons; Almighty Father, Divine Son and Holy Ghost. (Genesis 1:1, John 5:7, John 1:1, 4:24, Matthew 10:20, II Corinthians 3:17-18).

This is a statement often used by Oneness followers. It does not give a statement of faith in the Trinitarian God. If you believe in the Trinity, you should say so. 'Triune' does not cut it, nor does "manifested in three person." Are you UPC or Oneness?

Cannot fellowship with Oneness since their faith is not Christian. Modalism was condemned as a heresy in the 3rd century. Do not want to or have time to debate this as I've already done that on several threads here. Also, am going out of town Tuesday.

We believe in the authority of the believer over the enemy satan and the victory
- to be gained by the exercise of that authority in the areas of deliverance, healing and holiness. (Ephesians 1:20-23, 6:10-7).

I disagree with the way this is stated and is usually applied. I do not believe we were given that authority - I think it was given to the apostles. Will not argue on this, either, as I think it's a waste of time. However, I do not break fellowship over this issue as it is secondary.

I cannot tell from the baptism statement as to whether or not you believe in baptismal regeneration.

Gershom · Aug 27, 2004

Gina L posted:

I don't agree with the Holy Communion thing

From the Doctrinal Statement:

* We believe in water baptism and Holy Communion – The Lord's Supper

- as the ordinances of the church to be observed as public declaration of salvation through Jesus Christ and the commemoration of His death, burial and resurrection in victory over satan, death, hell and the grave. (Matthew 3:11,14, 26:26-29, Luke 22:17-23).

I don't really have a problem with this statement except I don't refer to it as "Holy Communion" but The Lord's Supper. I guess they've taken the commemoration a step further by adding the resurrection as part of the remembrance.

Given their denomination, I would say that their mode of water baptism is by immersion, although it does not make that clear in the statement.

Gina L posted:

or with the one that sounds like a belief in other gods

From the Doctrinal Statement:

* We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ

- the incarnation of the Father, born of a virgin, very God of every God for, and by whom all things were created (I John 1:1-10).

Is this the part you're refering to? I am not sure what they mean with "very God of every God for." I would ask that they explain what they mean by that.

Gina L posted:

or in the bible alone as a testimony to the truth.

From the Doctrinal Statement:

* We believe in the Bible as the inspired, infallible Word of God

- inerrant in the original autographs and the only rule of faith, guide for practice and indisputable and ultimate authority of the Revelation of God, His Will and His Way. (II Timothy 3:16-17, Psalms 19:7-11, 2 Peter 1:16-21).

You don't believe this?

Gershom · Aug 27, 2004

Marcia,

This is NOT my Doctrinal Statement. I am simply asking questions concerning a particular group's beliefs and wanted to see where the Baptist folk stand with regards to fellowship.

Gina B · Aug 27, 2004

1. Yes that was the part of it I was referring to on the gods

2. No I do not believe the written bible is the sole authority, although I believe it is the supreme one

Gina

Gershom · Aug 27, 2004

quote: We believe in the Triune God
– the Eternally Self-Existent, "I AM", the Creator of heaven and earth and Redeemer of mankind manifested in three persons; Almighty Father, Divine Son and Holy Ghost. (Genesis 1:1, John 5:7, John 1:1, 4:24, Matthew 10:20, II Corinthians 3:17-18).

Marcia posted:

This is a statement often used by Oneness followers. It does not give a statement of faith in the Trinitarian God. If you believe in the Trinity, you should say so. 'Triune' does not cut it, nor does "manifested in three person."

Seems like it does to me. What else can "triune" mean in this respect?

Marcia posted:

Are you UPC or Oneness?

Neither.

Marcia posted:

Cannot fellowship with Oneness since their faith is not Christian. Modalism was condemned as a heresy in the 3rd century.

Okay.

Marcia posted:

Do not want to or have time to debate this as I've already done that on several threads here. Also, am going out of town Tuesday.

Well ... thanks for taking the time to reply to say you don't have the time. Have a safe trip.

Marcia · Aug 27, 2004

Originally posted by Gershom:
Marcia,

This is NOT my Doctrinal Statement. I am simply asking questions concerning a particular group's beliefs and wanted to see where the Baptist folk stand with regards to fellowship.

Oh, okay! Thanks for clearing that up.

I would be wary of the first statement of faith in the Triune God although some Trinitarians do put it this way. They shouldn't as it does not make it clear what they believe. I have a statement of faith (brief) on my website and I make it very clear that I believe in the Trinity.

If it's not the Trinity, no fellowship.

Also, I have found that some Christian singers or groups will put it this way seemingly so as not to "offend" Oneness people who buy their products.

I think the "very God of every God" is a typo and is supposed to be "very God of very God." That comes from one of the creeds.

They may have been trying to quote the Nicene Creed:

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.

Marcia · Aug 28, 2004

Not going on trip until Tuesday. Just don't want to get involved in Oneness debates -- sorry, was overreacting.

Gershom posted

Marcia posted:

This is a statement often used by Oneness followers. It does not give a statement of faith in the Trinitarian God. If you believe in the Trinity, you should say so. 'Triune' does not cut it, nor does "manifested in three person."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seems like it does to me. What else can "triune" mean in this respect?

Oneness followers interpret or use "triune" to mean their definition of God manifesting as Father, Son, and HS. In other words, God the Father becomes God the Son becomes the HS. They do not believe that Jesus has a Father; Jesus is the Father. Jesus did not send "another Comforter" like He says He did; Jesus (or God, depending on which variation of Oneness) is the HS.

This statement is a good way to mask non-belief in the Trinity though Trinitarians use "Triune" to mean Trinitarian. It's a matter of how terms are used and the definitions behind them.

Gershom · Aug 28, 2004

Marcia posted:

Not going on trip until Tuesday. Just don't want to get involved in Oneness debates -- sorry, was overreacting.

That's quite alright. I am to blame for being sarcastic. I am sorry. Kinda overflows from the Politics forum, which brings out the worst in me and for which reason I have stayed away from that forum and anything political in my personal life as well.

Marcia posted:

Oneness followers interpret or use "triune" to mean their definition of God manifesting as Father, Son, and HS. In other words, God the Father becomes God the Son becomes the HS. They do not believe that Jesus has a Father; Jesus is the Father. Jesus did not send "another Comforter" like He says He did; Jesus (or God, depending on which variation of Oneness) is the HS.

With that in mind, what do you think of their statement:

* We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ

- the incarnation of the Father

What could that mean? Looks like they're saying the Father was incarnate.

I've also heard fundamental Baptists and Baptist preachers pray to the Father, thanking Him for dying on the cross.

Ben W · Aug 28, 2004

Originally posted by Gershom:


We believe in the Bible as the inspired, infallible Word of God

- inerrant in the original autographs and the only rule of faith, guide for practice and indisputable and ultimate authority of the Revelation of God, His Will and His Way. (II Timothy 3:16-17, Psalms 19:7-11, 2 Peter 1:16-21).

.

John 1:1, Jesus Christ is "The Word", the Bible is "the word". Big Doctrinal error here.

blackbird · Aug 28, 2004

I had to "slam on brakes" when I got to # 3!

We believe in the diety of Jesus Christ

Sounds good---so far

But "The Incarnation of the Father"---??? When Jesus said He came FROM the Father---and if He's the incarnation of the Father how come He found it necessary to pray TO the Father??

Shouldn't it read--"The Incarnation of God, The Son??" --- since it was God the Son who died on the Cross???

"very God of every God for"

Sounds like Universalism
Sounds like Universal Fatherhood of God---which is a lie!
Sounds like Universal Brotherhood of Man--which also is a lie!

rsr · Aug 28, 2004

I agree that the Trinitarian formulation is suspect. It's really easy to reach into the ecumenical creeds to be precise; "manifestation" sounds, as Marcia said, like modalism. "Incarnation of the Father" is nonsense to a Trinitarian. The Incarnation was the "enfleshing" of the eternal Son.

I also am bothered by this:

"We believe in the authority of the believer over the enemy satan and the victory - to be gained by the exercise of that authority in the areas of deliverance, healing and holiness. (Ephesians 1:20-23, 6:10-7)."

On the surface, this is all very orthodox; however, this smacks of "deliverance" ministries that emphasize, IMO, demonology over Christology and very close to the WoF movement.

And, as Ben said, the Word is the Word and the word is the word.

Gershom · Aug 28, 2004

Let me just re-emphasize that this is NOT my doctrinal statement. I am not out to defend it. My main goal is to ask whether or not you would fellowship with these folks.

From the Statement:

* We believe in the Bible as the inspired, infallible Word of God

- inerrant in the original autographs and the only rule of faith, guide for practice and indisputable and ultimate authority of the Revelation of God, His Will and His Way. (II Timothy 3:16-17, Psalms 19:7-11, 2 Peter 1:16-21).

Posted by Ben W:

John 1:1, Jesus Christ is "The Word", the Bible is "the word". Big Doctrinal error here.

I'm struggling with this one. I've always understood that Jesus is the Word, but I have also regarded scripture as the Word as well. Maybe you can help me out here. Not looking to argue, but just would like to know what you're thinking.

Gershom · Aug 28, 2004

blackbird posted:

I had to "slam on brakes" when I got to # 3!

We believe in the diety of Jesus Christ

Sounds good---so far

But "The Incarnation of the Father"---??? When Jesus said He came FROM the Father---and if He's the incarnation of the Father how come He found it necessary to pray TO the Father??

Shouldn't it read--"The Incarnation of God, The Son??" --- since it was God the Son who died on the Cross???

I agree with you here, blackbird. And with Marcia's questioning of the language of their using "triune" I can see that with "the incarnation of the Father" that she is probably right.

Jesus was incarnate and is now seated at the right hand of the Father. Amen.

Dale McNamee · Aug 28, 2004

How about the Athanasian Creed ?

Athanasian Creed

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

Webster's definition of "catholic": of, relating to, or forming the church universal.

Do you believe what's set forth in this creed?

In Christ,

Dale

Mercury · Aug 28, 2004

I disagree with points 28 and 44. Many believers throughout history have been saved without being able to articulate the Trinity or the incarnation in anywhere near that level of detail. I believe that a child-like faith is also valid, and that even children (or adults) who don't understand how Jesus is one with the Father yet still a separate person can still be saved. I believe our actions are a better determiner of the validity of our faith than how well we'd score on any exam of doctrinal knowledge (Matthew 25:31-46 is one passage I base this on).

BobRyan · Aug 28, 2004

John 1 - Jesus is the WORD. No question.

The Bible is the inspired Word of God - a product in essence of the Holy Spirit as Peter states it. (Jesus is not "the Bible").

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We believe in the Triune God
– the Eternally Self-Existent, "I AM", the Creator of heaven and earth and Redeemer of mankind manifested in three persons; Almighty Father, Divine Son and Holy Ghost. (Genesis 1:1, John 5:7, John 1:1, 4:24, Matthew 10:20, II Corinthians 3:17-18).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marcia
This is a statement often used by Oneness followers. It does not give a statement of faith in the Trinitarian God. If you believe in the Trinity, you should say so. 'Triune' does not cut it, nor does "manifested in three person." Are you UPC or Oneness?

Cannot fellowship with Oneness since their faith is not Christian. Modalism was condemned as a heresy in the 3rd century. Do not want to or have time to debate this as I've already done that on several threads here. Also, am going out of town Tuesday.

I am not sure this is correct.

The Oneness is that there is only ONE person - and that we see the ONE person in 3 forms at various times.

However this teaching above is that God is ONE and that the ONE God is in THREE REAL persons (as opposed to THREE GOD's in THREE persons). AS the song says "God in THREE persons blessed Trinity".

In that case - that definition of TRIUNE God is acceptable to me.

In Christ,

Bob

Marcia · Aug 28, 2004

Originally posted by Gershom:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Marcia posted:

Not going on trip until Tuesday. Just don't want to get involved in Oneness debates -- sorry, was overreacting.

That's quite alright. I am to blame for being sarcastic. I am sorry. Kinda overflows from the Politics forum, which brings out the worst in me and for which reason I have stayed away from that forum and anything political in my personal life as well.

Marcia posted:

Oneness followers interpret or use "triune" to mean their definition of God manifesting as Father, Son, and HS. In other words, God the Father becomes God the Son becomes the HS. They do not believe that Jesus has a Father; Jesus is the Father. Jesus did not send "another Comforter" like He says He did; Jesus (or God, depending on which variation of Oneness) is the HS.

Click to expand...

With that in mind, what do you think of their statement:

* We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ

- the incarnation of the Father

Click to expand...

What could that mean? Looks like they're saying the Father was incarnate.

I've also heard fundamental Baptists and Baptist preachers pray to the Father, thanking Him for dying on the cross. [/QUOTE]Thanks, Gershom. I generally stay away from politics as well, mainly because I am a total cynic about it.

I missed that statement! "Incarnation of the Father" does sound possibly Oneness since one Oneness belief is that they believe that Jesus is the Father.

This makes me wonder even more about their "Triune God."

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