Can anybody prove?

Frank · Jul 23, 2002

Chem:
I am not interested in your philosophy. It does not make truth. Jesus said, Sanctify them through thy truth thy word is truth.John 17:17.
Furthermore, Jesus provided specifically ALL things. This eliminates the need for anything else. The Bible demands one ACT OR SPEAK by the authority of Jesus Christ, not the lack of it. In Col. 3:17, the Bible says, And WHATSOEVER ye do in word or in deed do all in the name of the Lord Jesus giving thanks to the father by him. Mat. 28:18-20 All authority has been given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore amd teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the father, and in the name of the Son, and in the name of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and lo I am with you always even unto the end of the world.
One cannot please God by living his life based on that which is NOT written. One cannot please God by using silence. God has respected silence and expects us to do so as well. In Hebrews 7:14, the Bible says," For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of the Juda; of which tribe Moses SPAKE NOTHING concerning the priesthood. In Hebrews 8:4 the Bible says, for if he were on earth,he should NOT be a priest,seeing that there are priests that offer gifts ACCORDING TO THE LAW.
God repects silence he acts in accordance with what he has written,not what he has not. What gives you the authority do that which God himself will not do?
Furthermore, as I have said before, I do not expend much energy in studying creeds as they are useless according to the scriptures. Therefore, if you believe baptism is essential for salvation, you may affirm it. However, from a previous post you seem to indicate that was not the case. If I am wrong, I will be corrected.

I do not play games about the truth. I have displayed an honest an sincere presentation of the scriptures in every topic under discussion.
While you may have started the thread,you do not choose when, and how, and under what conditions I will respond.
You have attempted to build your case with silence which God rejects. I will provide a list of the who's who in doing it there way. Lev. 10: 1,2 Nadab and Abihu, Saul, the king of Israel, I Samuel 15:22.23, Uzzah, II Samuel 6:,6,7. In each case, these men acted in a manner that lacked authority. They each did it without the expressed approval of God ( silence). In each case, these men sinned, and some died as a result of their sin.
The children of Isreal carried the ark of God on a new cart in I Chr. 13:7. God did not expressly in words say do not carry the ark on a new cart. However, they sinned in so doing. I Chronicles 15:1-15. God did not specifically say do not carry the ark by a new cart. However, the children of Israel sinned because they had NO AUTHORITY TO DO SO. In Exodus 25:15, The Bible says, " The staves shall be in the rings of the ark; they shall not be taken from it." God did NOT SAY you may not use a cart to carry the ark. He was silent.Yet, when they did use the cart they sinned against. One must conclude from the evidence that man may not go passed that which is written. I Cor. 4:6. He must not add to or take a way from the scriptures Rev. 22:18,19. Man must have the word of the Lord for all he does in matters of faith.

Chemnitz · Jul 23, 2002

While you may have started the thread,you do not choose when, and how, and under what conditions I will respond.
You have attempted to build your case with silence which God rejects.
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Then don't complain about me not addressing you with needless scripture citations. If you aren't interested in philosophy why did you respond to the initial post?

Furthermore, as I have said before, I do not expend much energy in studying creeds as they are useless according to the scriptures. Therefore, if you believe baptism is essential for salvation, you may affirm it. However, from a previous post you seem to indicate that was not the case. If I am wrong, I will be corrected.
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If you are going to spend time on this board I would suggest you start studying. Otherwise your time is wasted in fruitless banter.

Using 1 Chr 13 to disprove the use of creeds? Ummmm....No! "13:10 YHWH's anger burned against Uzzah and he struck him down because he had put his hand on the ark. So he died there before God" He didn't die because of the cart he died because he touched it which is forbidden, only the levites were allowed to handle the ark (1 Chr 15:2)

[ July 23, 2002, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]

Juan Diego · Jul 23, 2002

Originally posted by Brother Adam:

Originally posted by Frank:
Can I borrow your time machine this weekend Frank. I would love the opportunity to go back to biblical times to learn what those in Jerusalem believed. Or are you using your own personal bias towards scripture and calling it absolute Truth again?

Bro. Adam
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Here's a start toward the right answer.

1. Who built all the Churches on the holy sites? That's a easy answer.

2. What did early Christians say? Here's one who was one of those eaten by lions. His testimony should be credible.

St. Ignatius of Antioch
Feastday: October 17

St. Ignatius was a convert to the Faith and a disciple of St. John the Evangelist. St. Chrysostom says that St. Peter appointed him Bishop of Antioch, which See he governed for forty years. The saint longed to shed to shed his blood for Christ but the opportunity was not granted him during the persecution under Domitian. While the short reign of Nerva lasted the Church was in peace, but under Trajan, persecution broke out anew. In the year 107, the Emperor came to Antioch. St. Ignatius was seized and brought before him. Having confessed Christ, he was condemned to be taken in chains to Rome, there to be exposed to the wild beasts. During this last journey he was welcomed by the faithful of Smyrna, Troas, and other places along the way. He arrived in Rome just as the public spectacles in the amphitheater were drawing to a close. The faithful of the city came out to meet him. He was at once hurried to the amphitheater, where two fierce lions immediately devoured him. He ended his saintly life by a glorious death, exclaiming, "May I become agreeable bread to the Lord." His remains were carried to Antioch, where they were interred. In the reign of Theodosius they were transferred to a church within the city. At present they are venerated in Rome. During his long journey he addressed seven epistles to various congregations, in which, as a disciple of the Apostles, he testifies to the dogmatic character of Apostolic Christianity. His feast day is October 17th.

For Ignatius of Antioch, it is obvious that faith must be active in love. Of faith and love toward Jesus Christ he writes to the Ephesians, "These are the beginning and end of life, for the beginning is faith and the end is love, when the two exist in unity , it is God, and everything else related to goodness is the result." Ignatius had no illusions about the God-head, for him, Christ is "our God". For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary. Ignatius was the first to use the term "catholic" in his writings to apply to the church. He said, "Wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic church."

That's good enough for me. What about you?

Juan Diego
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Brother Adam · Jul 23, 2002

Frank · Jul 23, 2002

Adam:
If you want to be like those in the first century, Follwowhat they did. Acts 2:42. God has stated we can and must know the truth. it is hos word that is truth.You do not need a time machind but a sincere submissive heart. Luke 8: 15.
God teaches us we can be complete and know the truth. II Tim. 3:16,17. However, some simply refuse to accept it. This will not excuse them of the day of Judgement. Jesus said in John 12:48, He that rejecteth me and receiveth not the words hath one that judgeth him, the words that I have spoken the same shall judge him in the last day. I notice Jesus did not say, I will judge you based on your creeds and articles of faith. Again, silence is golden and is prohibitive. The Bible says so. Hebs. 7:14, Hebrews 8:4.
GOD HAS ESTEEMEED HIS WORD ABOVE HIS NAME. Psalms 138:2. It is a strange thing , indeed, that most esteem their creed above his name.

Frank · Jul 23, 2002

Chem:
If you would check the scriptures posted, you will find I made no such claim about Uzzah. The reference was I Chronicles 15: 1-15 and was for the sin of the children of Israel for not carrrying the ark by staves as spoken in Exodus 25:15. Furthermore, the Levites wer the ones to cary the ark exclusively. However, God did not expressly forbid Uzzah from touching it. God did not say Uzzah if the ark is endanger of falling you may not touch it. Please read the text. If you are going to make and attempt to represent what I have posted from the scriptures,it would be appreciated if you would do so correctly.
By the way, Is baptism essential for the salvation of the sinner?

Frank · Jul 23, 2002

dhk:
the Bible says, obedient faith is required of ALL nations. Roms. 16:26. Your arguement is with the word of God,not me.

DHK · Jul 23, 2002

Originally posted by Juan Diego:

Ignatius was the first to use the term "catholic" in his writings to apply to the church. He said, "Wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic church."
That's good enough for me. What about you?
Juan Diego
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Ah yes, the Catholic Church, defender of the truth throughout the ages!

The sixteenth general council held at Constance in 1414, we have already seen carrying these bloody principles into execution in the inhuman religious murder of Huss and Jerome. Not content with this act of horrible treachery and barbarity, the Pope and the council proceeded, previous to its dissolution in 1418, to a solemn sanction of the inhuman decrees of Lateran. The holy and infallible assembly, in its forty-fifth session, presented a shocking scene of blasphemy and barbarity. Pope Martin, presiding in the sacred synod and clothed with all its authority, addressed the bishops and inquisitors of heretical pravity, on whom he bestowed his apostolic benediction. The eradication of error and the establishment of Catholicism, Martin represented as the chief care of himself and the council. His Holiness in his pontifical politeness, characterized Wickliff, Huss, and Jerome, as pestilent and deceitful hierarchs, who, excited with truculent rage, infested the Christian fold, and made the sheep putrify with the filth of falsehood. The partisans of heresy through Bohemia, Moravia, and other kingdoms, he described as actuated with the pride of Lucifer, the fury of wolves, and the deceitfulness of demons. The Pontiff then, supported by the council, proceeded, for the glory of God, the stability of Romanism, and the preservation of Christianity, to excommunicate these advocates of error, with their pestilent patrons and protectors, and to consign them to the secular arm arid the severest vengeance. He commanded kings to punish them according to the Lateran council. The above mentioned inhuman enactments of the Lateran, therefore, were to be brought into requisition against the Bohemians and Moravians, and they were to be despoiled of all property, Christian burial, and even of the consolations of humanity.
(The History of Romanism by John Dowling, New York: 1853)

Tyndale was a man of heroic stature and died a martyr's death. In England alone, more than 1,000 people were burned between 1400 and 1557 for the sake of the Gospel. Tyndale's books and tracts (or "pestilent glosses" as his enemies referred to them) were smuggled into England wrapped in bales of wool or cloth, or sacks of flour by fellow "Lollards". Had he remained a Catholic priest Tyndale would no doubt have been canonized as a saint, but had he remained a Catholic he would not have attempted to translate the Bible.
http://www.williamtyndale.com/Flourish.gif
DHK

[ July 23, 2002, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]
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DHK · Jul 23, 2002

Originally posted by Frank:
dhk:
the Bible says, obedient faith is required of ALL nations. Roms. 16:26. Your arguement is with the word of God,not me.
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Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures, neither the power of God.

Romans 16:25,26
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
It is Jesus Christ, and His gospel (the plan of salvation) that was kept secret, now is made manifest, and now is to be made known to all nations through the Great Commission--obedience to the faith. Again this is written to the saved, not the unsaved. Jesus did not command the unsaved to go with the gospel into every nation. Neither did Paul.

But both Jesus and Paul taught that salvation is by faith alone.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Eph.2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Your argument is not with me, it is with God.
DHK

Frank · Jul 23, 2002

dhk:
The Bible says faithful obedience is required of all nations, Again, you resort posting scripture that does nto refute the affirmative. Did God tell Paul to write that obedience was required of all nations?
God does not approve of an inactive faith. Not one time in the Old or New Testament has there been anyone accepted of God without an obedient active faith. NO EXCEPTION! James 2:21,17,26.
In John 3:16 the word believeth is a present participle requiring continous action. It is not a one time event. You just simply do not understand the scriptures about what faith is. You proceed to post scriptures that do not refute that faithful obedience is required of all nations.
However, the problem is, your creed will not let you have it any other way.

DHK · Jul 23, 2002

Originally posted by Frank:
However, the problem is, your creed will not let you have it any other way.
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What creed? I don't have one.

Chemnitz · Jul 23, 2002

Chem:
If you would check the scriptures posted, you will find I made no such claim about Uzzah. The reference was I Chronicles 15: 1-15 and was for the sin of the children of Israel for not carrrying the ark by staves as spoken in Exodus 25:15. Furthermore, the Levites wer the ones to cary the ark exclusively. However, God did not expressly forbid Uzzah from touching it. God did not say Uzzah if the ark is endanger of falling you may not touch it. Please read the text. If you are going to make and attempt to represent what I have posted from the scriptures,it would be appreciated if you would do so correctly
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Actually it was expressly forbidden for non Levites to touch the ark, try reading Exodus and Lev someday. 1 Chr 15:1-15 does nothing to prove your point either. He died because he touched the ark it doesn't get any plainer "and he struck him down, because he had put his hand on the ark" (1 Chr 13:10)

If you are going to make and attempt to represent what I have posted from the scriptures,it would be appreciated if you would do so correctly.
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Before you lecture me on quoting from the Bible you should learn how to do it first. I do not do prooftexting they tend to make the prooftexter look foolish such as they are doing to you right now. For your information I checked both citations and found you took them out of context. Keeping mind the context the citations do not prove your point. No points for you, try again.

By the way, Is baptism essential for the salvation of the sinner?
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Look it up, the practice will do you some good. The information is readly available both here on the B-board and www.lcms.org Just click on belief and practice. And yes I am doing this to make a point.

[ July 24, 2002, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]

DHK · Jul 23, 2002

Originally posted by Frank:
dhk:
The Bible says faithful obedience is required of all nations, Again, you resort posting scripture that does nto refute the affirmative. Did God tell Paul to write that obedience was required of all nations?
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You are writing a lie, and perverting Scripture. In Romans 16:26 it does not say that faithful obedience is required of all nations. Please read your Bible again. The faithful obedience refers to the believers of Rome who are to go and faithfully spread the gospel to all nations.

2Tim.2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Works salvation is another heresy you are spreading. No where in the Bible does it teach that we are saved by works.

Gal.3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Note carefully: The just are saved by faith, and the just live by faith; not by works: by faith.
Verse 10 teaches that if you do not continue in EVERYTHING written in the law every minute of every day of your life, you are cursed. One lie, one dirty thought, one vain word--just one time in your life brings you under the curse. This is what Christ redeemed us from. We are not under the law. We are redeemed from it. We are not saved by keeping the law; we are freed from it. Salvation is a gift, given to us of God, freely given, and freely received. It is not of works.
DHK

[ July 24, 2002, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]

Chemnitz · Jul 24, 2002

You are writing a lie, and perverting Scripture. In Romans 16:26 it does not say that faithful obedience is required of all nations. Please read your Bible again. The faithful obedience refers to the believers of Corinth who are to go and faithfully spread the gospel to all nations.
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DHK, do you mean Rome???

Brother Adam · Jul 24, 2002

"Adam:
If you want to be like those in the first century, Follwowhat they did. Acts 2:42."

Acts 2:42
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Beyond what is expressly written in your Bible you have no idea how the Apostles thought or how their doctrine compares with ours today. The doctrine that you hold is based on your interpertation of the Bible. For instance, the last supper can be interperted three ways, the Catholic, Lutheran, and symbolic view. Scripture itself does not tell us how the Apostles understood communion. Likewise, you have your own interpertation of scripture and are backing up what you say with scripture. That doesn't make you right, only the Bible. Your interpertation could be right or wrong, but is not infallible.

"God has stated we can and must know the truth. it is hos word that is truth.You do not need a time machind but a sincere submissive heart. Luke 8: 15."

You are changing the subject. No one said, that you cannot know the Truth through the Bible. I definitely didn't. I don't think anyone else has either. What I said, was that you do not know what was going on in the Apostles minds outside the Bible as you were claiming to know exactly how the early church taught and interperted Christ's words by what is written in the Bible. Fact is, you were not there, and you cannot know that. You have come up with your own interpertation of scripture, but that doesn't mean everything that you believe to be the doctrine of the church is what the Apostles and disciples then believed.

"God teaches us we can be complete and know the truth. II Tim. 3:16,17. However, some simply refuse to accept it. This will not excuse them of the day of Judgement. Jesus said in John 12:48, He that rejecteth me and receiveth not the words hath one that judgeth him, the words that I have spoken the same shall judge him in the last day. I notice Jesus did not say, I will judge you based on your creeds and articles of faith."

I have no idea where you come up with all this stuff because it feels like you are talking to someone else...When was I talking about some rejecting the truth? Where did all this come from? And you have yet to understand what a creed is even though Chemnitz has explained it to you time and again.. Which very well could come from a stubborn and hard heart. But that isn't for me to decide. Further more, I never even said anything about creeds in any of my posts. You were having that discussion with Chemnitz.

"Again, silence is golden and is prohibitive. The Bible says so. Hebs. 7:14, Hebrews 8:4.
GOD HAS ESTEEMEED HIS WORD ABOVE HIS NAME. Psalms 138:2. It is a strange thing , indeed, that most esteem their creed above his name."

Again- who are you talking to?!?! Who here has said anything about esteeming their creed above his name?!!?!

Bro. Adam
Eph. 4:32

Frank · Jul 24, 2002

Chem:
To assert a thing does not prove it. The scriptures posted were not taken out of context. By the way, Is baptism essential for salvation?

Brother Adam · Jul 24, 2002

You sure don't like to read peoples posts do you? Chem already answered your question. I'm going to bed. See all ya'll in the morning.

Bro. Adam

[ July 24, 2002, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: Brother Adam ]

Chemnitz · Jul 24, 2002

Originally posted by Frank:
Chem:
To assert a thing does not prove it. The scriptures posted were not taken out of context. By the way, Is baptism essential for salvation?
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Works both ways, Frank. Quite frankly I have better evidence than you and I presented it on the open forum, so now you are going to have to deal with the totality of Scripture and not limit it to bad prooftexting or are you going to cry about me cheating by using all of Scripture?

I gave you the link to look up the information on baptism. If you really want to know where I stand on baptism you can look it up.

[ July 24, 2002, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]

Chemnitz · Jul 24, 2002

"Again, silence is golden and is prohibitive. The Bible says so. Hebs. 7:14, Hebrews 8:4.
GOD HAS ESTEEMEED HIS WORD ABOVE HIS NAME. Psalms 138:2. It is a strange thing , indeed, that most esteem their creed above his name."

Again- who are you talking to?!?! Who here has said anything about esteeming their creed above his name?!!?!
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I can answer that one for you. Everybody who doesn't agree with Frank is esteeming their creed above His name.

DHK · Jul 24, 2002

Originally posted by Chemnitz:

DHK, do you mean Rome???
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Yes, I do. Thanks for pointing it out.
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