A Personal Relationship with Jesus is not enough

In another thread:
Kathryn said:

Adam said:

All that is needed to be saved is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, BUT a personal relationship with Christ is needed! That relationship comes when one, by his own volition comes as a sinner to Jesus Christ, admits their guilt and their need therefore of a Saviour, and trusts in the sacrificial atoning work of Christ. He receives Christ as saviour by faith and faith alone. It is a gift, entirely by the grace of God, to be received by faith.
Now the point here, is that one must remember such a momentous event in their life. Their must be a time in a person's life when they come to Christ. You are not born a Christian. This is an impossibility. Thus anyone who tells me that they have always believed, or had faith, or cannot ever remember not having Christ, are not saved. Let me give you an example. Being saved is compared to marriage in Ephesians 5. When we become saved we become part of the bride of Christ.
If you were to ask me, "Are you married?" and I were to give you this answer:"
"I cannot ever remember not being married. I have been married since the day I was born. My wife has always been my spouse from the first day of my life. I have always had confidence in my wife as my spouse. As long as I can remember she has been my wife. I have never, never been without her."

A strange answer? That is exactly how some so-called Christians answer about their Christianity. Concerning my marriage, I can remember the exact date of my marriage, not only who I am married to, but where, when, the time, the pastor who married us, the people who sang, the guests, the bridesmaids, the bestman, and all the other surrounding circumstances.
I can also relate to you the day that I became a part of the bride of Christ. I can tell you the exact date, and even the time (about 8:00 p.m.). It was on the campus of the University of Alberta. I can remember the names of the two individuals that showed me from the Bible the plan of salvation. I can remember thinking how different that this was to what I had been hearing all of my life in the Roman Catholic Church. I remember praying and asking Christ into my heart and life. I know that I have a relationship with Christ; not simply religion—no—a relationship, that continues to grow day by day. There is no way that a person can be a Christian all their lives. If you cannot remember the time (even approximate), or at least the event, when you came to the Lord as a sinner in need of Saviour, and trusted Him as your Lord and Saviour, then you don't have a relationship with Christ, and are not saved.
DHK

 

How can you say this as if you have all truth? Not everyone lived a life full of personal sin before they had faith in Christ. If a small child comes to have faith in Christ then they might not remember the exact time it happened.

A person who lived in all sorts of immorality and what not will have a different conversion than a child. That doesn't mean that the person who had the biggest conversion experience is saved while the other is lost.

 

How can you say this as if you have all truth? Not everyone lived a life full of personal sin before they had faith in Christ. If a small child comes to have faith in Christ then they might not remember the exact time it happened.

A person who lived in all sorts of immorality and what not will have a different conversion than a child. That doesn't mean that the person who had the biggest conversion experience is saved while the other is lost. </font>[/QUOTE]I say this on the authority of the Word of God. It is not just opinion; it is fact. A person must not just be born; he must be born again. That involves a second birth. That means you cannot have always believed as you say. If this is your testimony it is proof positive that you are not born again, and Jesus said:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

He also said:
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

"As many as received him." That indicates a time and point in your life where you actively received Jesus Christ as Saviour.
The last part of the verse says: "to them that believe on his name." You cannot believe from birth. You cannot believe for "as long as you can remember." You cannot always have been a Christian. There had to be a day, an event, in your life where you came to Christ, and actually received Him as your Saviour. If you did not come to Him as a sinner, admit your need for a Saviour, and trust in his atoning sacrifice for the forgiveness of your sins, then you are not saved, and you do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It is as simple as that.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Not "having always believed on the Lord Jesus Christ." The command is an imperative. It was given to an adult to do one time, right there and now. It is not in the continuous tense.

IF you shall CALL upon the name of the Lord you shall be saved. It is not having called upon the name of the Lord all of my life. There is a conditional IF, and then a one time imperative to call. It is not to keep on calling, but to simply call out just that once. Salvation is a one time event just like marriage is a one time event. You don't get married every day to the same woman. You do it once. And if you cannot remember that day I feel sorry for your spouse.
If you cannot remember the day of your salvation; I don't believe that you are saved.
DHK

 

I pretty much agree with what you are saying, but I'm sorry, but that last statement was going way too far.
It is not about remembering a particular day, (as if you will have to show some pass with a dated signature to get in).
In my own personal testimony, I struggled with believing in Christ, and did offer a prayer at one point, but it was over time that I eventually decided to place my faith ion Christ, so there was no particular day I could really pinpoint as "accepting Christ". Even then, I was still mixed up in false stuff (Armstrongism, though I didn't believe all their doctrines or join), and it took almost 2 years before I was convinced out of that, and I just didn't remember the date I accepted the rest of the truth, and was never sure which level of "conversion" (then or two years before) would be reckoned as me entering faith in Christ. So it was very fuzzy for me, but eventually, I could say certainly that I had received Christ, and that is what is important, not the date.
(Yes, you are right that assuming one was saved since a baby is very questionable, a baby doesn't understand, and in time only believes what is taught, and doesn't make its own decision. Many feel they are saved because they were raised in a Christian family and "always walked with Christ, lived holy", etc. Some of these conservative fundies who have such a background can take caution!)
I used to worry that I was supposed to be able to produce a date like so many others did, but as I pointed out in the Calvinist debate (they think that such an emphasis on a particular act that we do and remember would be a "work"), "I learned that it is not about an event of my doing, because anyone can do that and still not even be saved."

 

DHK, you may be over simplifying things a bit.

Matthew 7: 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

It takes more than just believing, or calling on the Lord, it also takes obedience to God's will.

 

Let's look from the Bible of those Jesus forgave who didn't "call upon the name of the Lord" or "ask forgiveness for their sins."

1. The sinful woman who washed Jesus's feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair and anointed them. Luke 7:44-50.

2. Zacchaeus the tax collector Luke 19:1-10.

3. The thief on the cross. Luke 40-43.

 

You're right there Eric. In a previous post I said that one should remember the time or at least the event. Many cannot remember a particular day for various reasons. But they ought to remember the event itself, in other words "how they were saved." There must be a time and place when they put their trust in Christ. It is not a gradual process.
DHK

 

I believe that passage has nothing to do with works as part of salvation. Go back and read the whole passage. Jesus is talking of false teachers. I will give you an example that is controversial for some, and I already know that I will get some resistance for even bringing it up.

Benny Hinn is a so-called faith healer. He holds to false doctrine (i.e. a nine-person trinity). I personally don't believe that he is saved, though he has a large following of mostly Charismatic people, many of whom, no doubt, are saved.

Benny Hinn may stand before the Lord some day and point out to the Lord all the wonderful works that he has done: casting out demons, healing the sick, signs like speaking in tongues, etc. And yet the Lord will say: Depart from me for I never knew you. It is not the works, it is the relationship. Counterfeit works, counterfeit religion don't mean a thing to Christ. Do you have the real thing? A real genuine relationship with Christ--the second person of the triune Godhead. Benny Hinn's God is not the God of the Bible, and that is why I conclude thus. A nine-person trinity is not the God of the Bible. It is not the works that save. It is the works that demonstrate that one is saved. In verse 20 of the same chapter Christ says, By their works ye shall know them. He did not say: By their works they shall be saved. There is a big difference.
DHK

 

If she had not believed she would not have taken such action. Jesus testified that she was doing such against the day of his burial. That is faith. Jesus also rebuked Simon for not doing the same, and for his unbelief.

Zaccheus demonstrated his faith and repentance in the words that he said: "The half of my goods I give to the poor, and I have taken anything from any man I restore fourfold." There was genuine repentance. It only comes from genuine faith. The Bible does not always give us all the facts. But we see from what facts it does give what happened.

But he did call. Not in the exact words, that you want us to say he did. He said: "Lord, remember me when you enter into your kingdom."

Luke 23:40-43 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Verse 40--At this point it says that he feared God.
Verse 41--He admits his own sin, and the consequence of his own sin which he justly deserves
Verse 42--He calls upon the name of the Lord, addressing Christ by "Lord." That in itself has the meaning that he was willing at this point to have Christ as his Lord, master, Saviour.
--"Remember me" He continues his call for Jesus to remember him. Jesus had previously promised that ALL who come to him he would never cast out. The thief is taking Jesus up on His promise.
He called upon the name of the Lord--"Lord" He knew who He was.
And if I were a gambling man I'd gamble my house away that that thief on the cross never forgot that day, for the rest of his life, the day when he called upon the name of the Lord and got saved.
DHK

[ April 06, 2004, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

Oh this examples are justifiable but when someone else gives their testimony that you don't agree with, you tell them they are not saved?

The sinner woman demonstrated an act of perfect contrition.

While some Protestants claim that the RCC is a man made doctrine, it's altar calls and the sinner's prayer that is a man made doctrine.

Also, the RCC are the only ones who take all the NT teachings and the complete plan of salvation. Not like others who disregard all the other verses that do not deal with faith only.

 

Oh yes, I almost forgot...how are we born again? By baptism as the scriptures plainly explain

 

Frist, this is not directed to Catholics only. There are many, many people who think that they are Christians just because they have been born into a "Christian" family, or for some reason think that they have been a Christian all their life. That concept is false, no matter what your background is.

Secondly, the word "trinity" is not found in the Bible but the teaching is.
The phrase "faith only" or "faith alone" may not be found in the Bible in the context which you may asking of us to use it. But it is certainly is taught in hundreds of verses throughout the Bible. It clearly is taught in Eph.2:8,9. You cannot escape the clear teaching of that passage without coming to the conclusion that salvation is provided by the grace of God to believed by faith alone and not of works. It is faith, and faith alone. What other teaching can one come to after reading those verses?

Third, "altar calls" and "sinner's prayers" are not doctrines. They are traditions in many churches and with many individuals, but are not necessary to salvation. They are no more necessary than a candle in a Catholic Church. Nice to have, but not necessary. It is a matter of preference on the part of the preacher.

What do you mean by an act of contrition. Did she do penance to. These terms are foreign to the Bible. She repented and showed the fruits of her repentance. She was forgiven and gave evidence of her forgiveness.

Luke 7:38-39 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

Luke 7:47-48 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

Her action of love was evidence of her belief (faith alone)in the ONE that could forgive her sins.
Verse 48: she received forgiveness from the only one who can forgive sins.
DHK

 

The Scriptures NEVER, NEVER teach that we are born again by baptism. Baptism is not once mentioned in John chapter 3, where the command to be born again is given.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
DHK

 

Mark 1:4 John the Baptist appeared in the desert proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Romans 6:4 "We were indeed buried with him (Christ) through baptism into death..."

I Cor. 12:13 "For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body."

Gal. 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

John 3 is most definitely speaking about actual baptism.

 

The above verses, aside from John 3, have nothing to do with being born again, and being born again has nothing to do with baptism. You have to make a direct connection somewhere along the line. Again, there is no mention of baptism in John 3
DHK

 

One key Scripture reference to being "born again" or "regenerated" is John 3:5, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus here refers to baptism. "Born again" Christians claim the "water" is the preached word of God.

But the early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life—a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5).

No Church Father referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.

Justin Martyr


"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).


Irenaeus


"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).


Tertullian


"[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’" (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).


Hippolytus


"The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism" (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 [A.D. 217]).


The Recognitions of Clement


"But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (The Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).

Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).


The Christian belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted" (Large Catechism 4:6).

Few truths are so clearly taught in the New Testament as the doctrine that in baptism God gives us grace. Again and again the sacred writers tell us that it is in baptism that we are saved, buried with Christ, incorporated into his body, washed of our sins, regenerated, cleansed, and so on (see Acts 2:38, 22:16; Rom. 6:1–4; 1 Cor. 6:11, 12:13; Gal. 3:26–27; Eph. 5:25-27; Col. 2:11–12; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:18–22). They are unanimous in speaking of baptism in invariably efficient terms, as really bringing about a spiritual effect.

 

Living4Him:
It's good to see that you are well acquainted with the church fathers. And I for one am glad that my trust is put in the Word of God, and not in the church fathers, who seem very confused about many things. Tertullian changed his mind more than once on the subject of baptism. Later in life, when he joined the Montanists, he recanted what he believed concerning baptismal regeneration. So you see, one cannot rely on the writings of the church fathers. It's like pulling up quotes of Muslim scholars quoting what they believe on Christianity as your proof of what Christians believe. The church fathers contradicted one another, and at times contradicted themselves. The only true standard that we have is the Word of God. We must start and end with the Scriptures.

Nicodemus was a ruler of the Jews. He came to Jesus by night, wanting to find out the truth about eternal life. Jesus answered him and said that "he must be born again." Nicodemus didn't understand what he meant. He enquired how that could be. How could he enter into his mother's womb a second time and be born. Perhaps he was thinking of reincarnation such as the Hindus do. But again Jesus was insistent: "You must be born again." In the entire course of conversation Jesus emphasizes this one fact no less than three times—You must be born again.
Verse 6 is a key verse. Christ speaks of two kinds of birth.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; that which born of the Spirit is spirit."
There are two kinds of birth/life. One is of the flesh, and the other is of the Spirit.
One is fleshly or carnal; the other is spiritual. Jesus said that you already have been born of the flesh. Everyone has. That is how we got here. But not everyone has been born of the Spirit. Nicodemus you need to be born of the Spirit. You need to be born again. Note that baptism is not in this discussion. Neither Nicodemus nor Jesus would be thinking of baptism. Nicodemus was a ruler of the Jews. Baptism would be the last thing on his mind. It has nothing to do with this conversation. The simple emphasis of Jesus is: "You must be born again."
If you are born once, you will die twice;
If you are born twice, you will die once.
You must be born again.

And so we come to verse 5. "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God."
This is the verse which causes you so much consternation. Note the word water. The Greek word for "water" is H2O.  It doesn't mean anything else but water. If you say that it means baptism, then you are the one that is putting a symbolic meaning on to water. BTW, I agree that water is symbolic in this passage. The question is, what is water symbolic of? The answer is definitely not baptism. That can be ruled out immediately. One is not saved by baptism. The Scripture does not teach that. The Scriptures teach that we are saved by faith.

Now consider verse 5 carefully. If we agree on one thing so far, we can agree that water is symbolic of something. The other thing that we can agree on is that we are born again of the Spirit. "Except a man is born of WATER and of the SPIRIT, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Thus, there are these two agents, and only these two agents whereby a person is born again. The Holy Spirit we can agree upon. One must be born again by the Holy Spirit of God. That is one of the agents that God uses—the Holy Spirit. What then is the other agent, that is symbolized by "water." This is where Scripture interprets itself.

First, what is the normal function of water? Water is cleansing agent. It cleanses us.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
--Water is symbolic of the Word of God, which cleanses us. We are clean through the Word of God, Christ said.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
--James says that we are "begotten" or born again with the Word of truth, i.e., the Word of God. Remember that there are only two agents by which a person is born again—water (the Word) and the Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--It is clear. We are born again by the Word of God. There are only two agents by which one is born again—the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--John says that those that receive Christ are born…of God. They are born: not of blood (can't be born a Christian), nor of the will of the flesh (not through any carnal act), nor of the will of man (any decision like baptism), but of God alone. You must be born again. You must be born into God's family, become one of his children, and that takes a work of the Holy Spirit as He operates through the Word of God. Baptism has nothing to do with it.
DHK

 

Thanks DHK for rightly dividing the word of truth. This is the way the Bible should be interpreted, according to itself, unlike the other interpretation which is just based on man's opinion.

Just want also to add that i enjoyed reading your posts. I learned greatly from them, you seems to know your Bible very well and know how to compare spiritual with spiritual.

 

DKH,

In the OT, the Israelites had to offer a sacrafice of a spotless lamb. After they offered their sacrafice for their sins, they were required to take a cleansing bath at the temple. However, these had to be repeated because these didn't take away all their sins.

Jesus is the spotless paschal Lamb that takes away the sins of the world. We are covered under the blood of the Lamb. Baptism is now more than a ritual cleansing bath. Baptism: A Sacrament by which a person is cleansed of all sin, by water, and by the Word of GOD. In Baptism sin goes out and GOD comes in.


The Effects of Baptism:

1. It brings forgivenss of sins. "We were indeed buried with him (Christ) through baptism into death..." (Rom. 6:4). We have died to the old life of sin, therefore baptism brings death to sin.

2. Baptism brings us new life as God's children. "...so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life." (Rom. 6:4, 8:17)

3. Baptism gives us union with God. God wants to be close to us, and joins us to the love of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit through baptism. A Christian is a "temple of God" in whom "the Spirit of God dwells" "Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)

4. Baptism confers membership in the Church, the body of Christ. "For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body" (I Cor. 12:13)

 

Nah... DHK is obviously reading what he believes rather than believing what he reads.

Faith, baptism, the bread of life, etc. all must be twisted into symbolism here and literalism there, for him to force the readings to fit his preconceived beliefs.

Retaining and remitting of sin must be twisted into recognizing who is saved and who is not.

Baptism must be twisted into preaching the Gospel.

Drop a word like alone into a passage where it doesn't exist.

Ignore other passages which conflict with your interpretation.

The list is endless.

All the new doctrines and beliefs virtually unheard of prior to the Reformation are declared to be historic Christianity while the writings which remain from the earliest Christians which show otherwise are dismissed as irrelevant.

Like I said, reading what you believe - not rightly dividing.