if the pope dies

Ray,

At the time of the Reformation, the intellectual formation of the clergy - in many places - was quite insufficient, and the nominalist philosophy that had crept into the educational institutions - and which was directly opposed to Christianity at its core - essentially corrupted the education of many clergy and laymen (e.g. Erasmus who was Semi-Pelagian). It was the Council of Trent that established seminaries and aimed to reform the Church, especially in this respect.

Your statement that "Martin Luther was enlightened to the Apostolic belief that all sinners are justified by faith" essentially proves my point. This has always been Catholic doctrine, and this possitive affirmation of Luther is wholly correct and Catholic. Louis Bouyet (a former Protestant theologian who converted to Catholicism) points this out well in his text The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism, which was originally published in the 1950's (Scepter 2001). It is precisely the fact that Luther's positive affirmations are wholly Catholic that - when you study Luther - you erroneously believe the Church teaches contrary to what he affirmed in this regard. You are in error, as Luther was, in thinking the Church does not teach what she has always taught, beginning with the Apostles, notably St. Paul.

 

Matthew shows that Christ is in the line of David and thereby has the authority to claim the throne of David in Jerusalem. Thus declaring himself King of Israel. I believe the foundation of the church is Christ. I believe he has and is building his church upon the same profession Peter provided. I do not believe Christ made Peter a Prime Minister. I believe the Holy Spirit is the Prime Minister. It is by the Holy Spirit that all who beleive make their profession.

Any time you make dogma of a man or group of people or speak as though God had need of a man or group of men to preserve his word, you cannot say in honesty that you beleive the buck stops with scripture. Really what you believe is that the word of the church is infallible. Really what you are saying is that you are satisfied with what ever a man says the word of God means. Tell me, would you accept everything that I or any Baptist church said as infallible, I don't even do that. Why do you accept what the church says about the Word of God? Have you ever found that you were in disagreement with a Papal Bull because of what you read in scripture? If so what did you do? Change your mind to what the Bull states or did you remain with the Word of God? You say it cannot interpret itself. This is true in and of itself it does not interpret itself in all cases. But it all has one author and he interprets it through the Holy Spirit that indwells us.
John 14

John 16

John 16

Note the promise here. Are you a believer? Of course you are. So why do I ask you this? Because the scripture speaks to me and to you and not to you and to me except by the Holy Spirit.

Note also: 1 John 2.27 [just in case you want to limit the words of Christ to the apostles, this apostle is not speaking only to the Pope in Rome is he?] Notice in vs. 28 John calls his audience 'little children' and not your eminence. The former is plural and the latter is singular.

Thanks, I have studied this and studied this and studied this. I don't think that Christ placed any portion of an office of mediator in the hands of Peter.

Thanks for the citation. I am not a Protestant of any brand, so I do not know of him. I think he is in error also. Is it ok to remove this statement from its context and then claim no reference to Peter's profession of faith? I wouldn't think so. If we limit doctrine to single scripture apart from contextual reference we'd all be getting up early in the morning, going out before breakfast and hanging ourselves and doing it quickly.

If I have offended you let me know and I will apologize, when I do not understand a word I am not afraid to say I don't know what that means.

Ok, you got me there. But this does not say that we are to pray to these saints does it? Still there is only one mediator between God and man and the Bible never commands our prayers to be to anyone but Him. In fact we are to ask all things in His name.

</font>[/QUOTE]I am not Seventh Day Adventist either. How do you get the above out of the following?

Bro. Dallas

 

Frogman,

Thanks for your kind thoughts.

You said, 'How can the church so declare these people canonized saints? It is God that
justifies. Can the church, or any person search the heart and reins of
another?'

Ray is saying, 'I think the Roman system keeps making new saints so Catholics have one more mediator to pray to other than Jesus. [I Timothy 2:5] One would think that those who believe in this ecclesiastical system would ask one of their teenagers the simple meaning of 'one Mediator.'

While it is true that everyone who loves Jesus is a saint in the making, it is also clear from Scripture that we are not fully endowed with saintliness until we die and get our new spiritual body in Heaven, [II Cor. 5:1] or when He returns in the clouds, [I Thess. 4:17; II Thess. 5:23] In this latter verse Paul tells us that we are only made fully saints {the Greek word is 'at'} the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.'

Oh, and if you find time give me the Scripture that says that Christians are to pray to or through saints who have been bonified by Catholicism. As you well know, there is not one to be found in the Bible.

A brother in Christ,
Ray

 

Thessalonian,

You never answered my questions that you said you would get back to. I would like to have your insights, especially since you carried the discussion down this path. The whole discussion is on pages 4 and 5.

In Christ,
Neal

 

If the pope dies then he's dead. He's no different than any other human. Catholicism is a wash, man. Get with the program. If you can't see that it's chalked full of idolatry and extra-Scriptural teachings then you should start at ground zero and rebuild your belief system. Not trying to be a jerk. There is only one way to salvation, you can't work for it, Mary isn't worthy of prayer, the papacy is a fallacy, and all Christians are saints. Period. Paragraph.

 

Hi chargrove,

I notice that you're from Ft. Worth. Very cool - I'm originally from San Antonio & graduated from Texas A&M.

Catholicism teaches that the pope is a sinful man, that idolatry is a sin, that Scripture has primacy in theology & doctrine because of its inspired nature, and that those who are "in Christ through grace" are saints - both here on earth and in heaven.