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James 2:24 vs. Eph 2:8-9

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Eladar, Mar 27, 2002.

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  1. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer Active Member
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    Wow, Carson! We've now debated enough that you call ALL of your opponents "Clint!" I had to go back and read the thread to make sure, but I didn't post on this one. Maybe you were speaking to the invisible moderator?

    Thanks for keeping me in your thoughts though!

    May God bless you

    - Clint
     
    #21 Clint Kritzer, Mar 28, 2002
  2. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Tuor writes:
    Brian,
    So you believe that the warnings given to Pharisees don't count when it comes to Christians?
    What Jesus says is true for one group doesn't apply to another?
    I couldn't disagree with you more!
    Was Jesus talking to just the Pharisees or was He talking to us when He said:
    But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
    Matthew 12:36-37
    It seems to me that Jesus uses the word 'justified' for salvation.

    Tuor, Are you saying that there is no difference between believers and unbelievers? Do you talk in the same way to strangers as you do to your immediate family? the answer is No and it is the same with God. We "believers" know his voice. If WE know his voice then unbelievers don't know his voice. So, to answer your question, I think there were many many things said to the pharisees that are not meant for me or other believers.

    Also, You can't just keep picking single verses out of context to make your point. We are talking about the word justified as used in James here.

    Hope you are well and I appreciate your desire to search God's word. I hope we can edify and help eachother to grow in knowledge of our Savior.

    To Carson and others: I just don't see how you miss the basic point of James, it really is very simple, kind of like Jesus. A simple man with a simple message. You all are trying to make scripture fit what you believe instead of believing what it says.

    In a risen Christ,
    Brian
     
    #22 Briguy, Mar 28, 2002
  3. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Jesus had not died yet, therefore the Jewish people were still under the law. Pharisees at that time were believers.

    Was Jesus talking about salvation when he used the word justified?

    That was my point, the word justified is used in the Bible in the context of salvation.

    Where does James say he talking about how things appear to man? I can show you where James says he is talking about salvation. So who is trying to make scripture say what the writer never intended it to mean?

    [ March 28, 2002, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Tuor ]
     
    #23 Eladar, Mar 28, 2002
  4. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Hi Clint,

    Above, I was not responding to a particular post; I was, rather, giving you a piece of information from the OT, hoping that you would comment on it. The post may also be directed to anyone else that professes Sola Fide (splicing the act of faith from it's working out in love).

    Hi BLH,

    You wrote, "What is your opinion about the verses that state: 1. Baptism is for the forgivenss of sin."

    I believe that it means what it says: "be baptized for the forgiveness of sin". The Baptist will translate this and other such passages that, at face value mean one thing, yet run contrary to their preconceived antisacramental theology.

    I also think that most of Protestantism has a portion of Christianity that it seeks to defend more than other portions. The Church of Christ, namely, focuses upon baptism; Calvinism, namely, focuses upon predestination; Baptists, from my experience, are interested primarily in eternal security; 7th Day Adventists have a theology that revolves around anti-Catholicism.

    God bless,

    Carson

    [ March 28, 2002, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
     
    #24 Carson Weber, Mar 28, 2002
  5. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Brother Tuor, you wrote:
    "Jesus had not died yet, therefore the Jewish people were still under the law. Pharisees at that time were believers."

    Being a "believer" was never based on belonging to a group or having a title. Clearly many,if not most Pharisees were not believers.

    Anyway, the issue is that we as believers must look at everything in The Bible and realize some things are not directed at us though we can grow and learn from them. When Jesus said to Mary M. Go and sin no more, he was speaking to her not us but what a great opportunity to learn from that event and the message given to Mary. See my point!

    Take care and God Bless,
    Brian

    P.S. I don't think I can do a better job then I have already at what justify in James means. We just may have to agree that well----- I am right and you are wrong ;) :D
     
    #25 Briguy, Mar 28, 2002
  6. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    A believer in what? Surely you don't mean a believer in God.
     
    #26 Eladar, Mar 28, 2002
  7. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Tuor, Are you OK today? You seem a little stressed. If there is something I can pray for let me know or give me a private message if you want. I guess the social worker in me is coming out but I sense there is something on your mind.

    Anyway, I know what you are getting at and we are kind of speaking around eachother. Many Pharisees by name were not forgiven in the Old Covenant. They were spiteful, show offs that I believe Jesus called, among other things, "a brood of vipers". Since Jesus is God, God is the one calling them that. Doesn't sound like language you use when addressing the "faithful" does it?

    In our Risen Lord,
    Brian
     
    #27 Briguy, Mar 28, 2002
  8. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    It does when they believe they are faithful, but their actions show that they are not. That is the entire point. The Pharisees believed they were super faithful, but were deceiving themselves.

    In any case, the point of the verse is that actions before men are meaningless. Why would James be worried about actions before men, if Jesus had already said actions before men are meaningless?

    By the way, I'm fine. I just get a little irritated at the way you don't give any evidence that what you are saying about James is correct. From what I can see, you are saying you are right because if you weren't it wouldn't fit your understanding of other scripture. You then tell me I am taking things out of context without telling me how. Yes there might be other things said around the verse, but that does not negate the meaning of the verse I am posting.

    I've seen the same tactic used in defending homosexuality in Romans 1 and 2.

    [ March 28, 2002, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Tuor ]
     
    #28 Eladar, Mar 28, 2002
  9. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Tuor, I must confess that I do this from work and so do not have time to give the scriptual backing to the answers I give. I post mainly in concepts for quick understanding. I do not mean to By-pass anything you say. Please accept my apology.
    You worte:
    "It does when they believe they are faithful, but their actions show that they are not. That is the entire point. The Pharisees believed they were super faithful, but were deceiving themselves.

    In any case, the point of the verse is that actions before men are meaningless. Why would James be worried about actions before men, if Jesus had already said actions before men are meaningless?

    Tuor, I agree that there are those among us now that think they are faithful but are not. Is what you are saying is that works mean nothing to men because they may or may not be from a person who is right with God?

    OK reconsile that with my definition of Justify.

    Also, If Jesus was speaking to the "lost" he would use "justified" different then James who was talking to the "found", right?

    One more thought: Our actions before men are meaningless to our salvation but mean everything to the salvation of others.

    "Let your light shine before others that they may see your good works and glorify God" I am having a mind block on the whole verse but it is popular and I am sure you know the whole thing.

    In Love and Truth - Happy Easter!!!,
    Brian
     
    #29 Briguy, Mar 28, 2002
  10. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Happy Easter!

    I'll get back to you when I look up the actual word translated to Justify in both scriptures. I have a sneeky suspicion that Jesus and James never actually used the word justified. I don't know why, I just have this feeling.

    See ya next week!

    [ March 28, 2002, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: Tuor ]
     
    #30 Eladar, Mar 28, 2002
  11. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    I now have my Zondervan NASB Exhaustive Concordance and this is what it says about the word that is translated as 'justify' in James 2:

    dikaioo- to show to be righteous, declare righteous:-acknowledged.

    It has been translated as justice once, acquitted once, freed three times,justified twenty-four times, justifier once, justifies once, justify four times, and vindicated three times.

    It is from the word:

    dikaios-correct, righteous, by impl.

    It has been translated into the words: innocent, just, justice, right, righteous, righteous man, righteous man's, righteous men, righteous one, righteous person, righeous persons.

    This word is from:

    dike- right(as in self-evident), justice(the principle, a cedision or its execution):-justice

    It has been translated into the words: justice, penalty, punishment.
    -------------------------------------

    I think you will agree with me that the greek word used here doesn't exactly fit the definition of the English word as you have defined it Brian.
     
    #31 Eladar, Apr 1, 2002
  12. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Hi Tour, Hope you had a great Easter! Thanks for following through and doing what you said you would do. It is nice to see someone stick to their word. Anyway, you wrote:

    dikaioo- to show to be righteous, declare righteous:-acknowledged.

    Now when I see this it seems to prove my point, at least that is what I see. The meaning "to show to be righteous" is what we do before men, not God. God already knows whether we are righteous or not, we don't have to "show" him anything. We do have to "show" others as part of our witness to them. (You know the concept from my last post.)

    Please let me know if I am missing your point to the definition of justify as I am interested in what you are saying.

    Also, I noticed you too go to a non-denominational church. How did you find your church? Do you agree with the foundational teachings of the church you go to?

    Take care, In Our Savior,
    Brian
     
    #32 Briguy, Apr 1, 2002
  13. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    The Church I attend is a "Christian" church. It is an offshoot of the disciples of Christ movement I believe. On the whole, I believe I do, but I haven't been attending very long. I been there long enough to see some problems, but not long enough to go into discussions on everything.

    As to the word dikaioo, it is the exact same word Matthew uses to record Jesus' comment in Matthew 12:36-37. What was the meaning of what Jesus said as Matthew recorded it. Was it righteousness before men or God?

    I never considered righteous as being before man.

    [ April 01, 2002, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Tuor ]
     
    #33 Eladar, Apr 1, 2002
  14. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Hey again Tuor. Here is Matt. 34-38,

    12:34: O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
    12:35: A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
    12:36: But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
    12:37: For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
    12:38: Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

    Look at the harshness Jesus is using here. These are not followers of God but are "evil" as it says "being evil". Their evil deeds were the proof they were not right with God. This is a simple case of two totally different audiences, from Matthew to James and two different ways of saying faith in God produces good works.

    I have more in my mind but can't get my brain to work right now. Stand by I do have more to say ;)

    In Truth,
    Brian
     
    #34 Briguy, Apr 1, 2002
  15. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    I'm not talking about the group Jesus is addressing, I am talking about what 'justify' means. What is Jesus saying about the justification. Jesus is referring to salvation in terms of justification.

    There are plenty more passages that refer to justification when talking about salvation.
     
    #35 Eladar, Apr 1, 2002
  16. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Tuor, that isn't your real name is it? Can you share your actual name or do you not want your name on the BB.

    Anyway, lets take the one verse and insert the definition you gave of justify.

    12:37: For by thy words thou shalt be "shown to be righteous", and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.(or implied - "shown not to be righteous"

    It is salvation being discussed but as shown to men. I still think, if you are saying that works are part of salvation that that is not what is being said here. The actions before men are the proof that you are not saved and that is it.
    (The serve is tossed up and hit over the net and down the service line, Tuor brings his racket back and he----------------- :D :D )

    In Him,
    Brian
     
    #36 Briguy, Apr 1, 2002
  17. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    No Response, Hmmmmmm, Must have served an ace :D
     
    #37 Briguy, Apr 2, 2002
  18. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    My actual name is Nils. I adopted the screen name Tuor at another board (Tolkien related) and it has been my screen name ever since.

    I am beginning to feel like we are trying to argue which came first, the chicken or the egg.

    Do you or do you not believe that our actions have an affect on our assurance of salvation? This is the only thing we are arguing about. I never said that James is saying doing good works will get us into heaven. I am saying that James is teaching us that faith perfected by our works is what gets us into heaven.

    Faith that Jesus Christ is lord, without the fruits that show Jesus in our heart, reveals a person that is on par with the demons who proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God. In other words, faith without works, reveals the heart of a person who is not going to heaven. Or as James put it, faith without works is dead.

    As Paul put it in Romans, it is not those who hear the law that are justified, it is the ones who do the law that are justified. As Jesus put it, who actually did what his father wanted, the boy who said he would do the work but didn't, or the boy who said no initially, but then actually went out and did it.

    ***By the way, my time on the internet is inconsistant, this was the first chance I had to respond***

    [ April 02, 2002, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Tuor ]
     
    #38 Eladar, Apr 2, 2002
  19. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Hi Nils, Thanks for the response. You asked:
    "Do you or do you not believe that our actions have an affect on our assurance of salvation? "

    This is a difficult question the way you phrased it. If you know you are acting on God's behalf(being his arms and legs) you would have a great assurance so in that sense I answer yes, but---- If we are saying that works are needed for salvation(to perfect it as you said) I would say no based on the fact that a person could trust Jesus today and then die in an auto accident tomorrow without even knowing what works are let alone do any. Was I clear as mud with that ;)

    IN Christ,
    Brian

    btw, where is the name Nils from? I haven't heard of that before.
     
    #39 Briguy, Apr 2, 2002
  20. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    It is a Swedish name. My middle name is Ingemar. At least when I hear my name, I know someone is talking to me and not some other Nils.

    You take a rather extreme position when it comes to good works showing faith. Of course when someone doesn't have the opportunity to demonstrate the fruits of the heart, the fruit can't be judged.

    But given time, which is the case for the vast majority of people, the fruits can be seen.

    What James is saying does not limit God's decision (i.e. if you don't do good works you can't get into heaven), what James is saying is that we can judge for ourselves the kind of belief we have. We can see for ourselves if we are doing what God commands, knowing inside the reason why we are doing it. It is a personal way of judging ourselves, not of judging others. There is no way in the world that we can know the reason why others do what they do. We do know why we do what we do.

    What Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 5 has to do with judging other Christians by their outward fruits. We can judge fruit that goes against the spirit, but we can't judge the reason behind actions that appear to be in accord with the spirit.

    I believe this all boils down to the herecy that states that our salvation is spiritual, but this world is material therefore nothing we do has anything to do with salvation. It was a herecy when it was first taught and it is still a herecy today.
     
    #40 Eladar, Apr 2, 2002
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