James 2:24 vs. Eph 2:8-9

Nils, I do see now what you are saying. I don't think we were too far off after all. What you wrote reminds me of the passage that says that His spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God. I do believe that we, in examining ourselves, will know if we are the children of God. Taking one more step, when others see what we know of ourselves, they will know we are different and by our "works" (our witness and good deeds) they will have their chance at salvation. To them we will be justified, i.e found to be righteous.

Take care, In Christ,
Brian

[ April 02, 2002, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: The Briguy ]

 

I am so sorry to give this answer but I think it is both. Now that we have worked through it both seem to apply.

Side note though, which has troubled me. I saw an interpretation of the word "dead" that James used, i.e faith without works is dead as "lazy". I can't remember which commentary but they said the greek word really means lazy. That would make our discussion totally different and I think better support my original argument. What are your thoughts on that?

In Christ,
Brian

 

Hi Nils, Sorry I didn't answer you right away. It seems to me that there is more to what Jamws is saying then a simple yes or no to your question can answer. I do think you are right in that there is an aspect of self-evaluation involved here. Looking at our own lives and works is a way of knowing we are saved. Still, We have nothing to prove to God, as he knows all, so our works are of the uttermost importance to those around us and not to let God know we are his. Our works then are to show others AND ourselves to whom we belong. Hope that didn't confuse you but that is the only way I can say it now.

In Our Savior,
Brian

 

I am new here, so please excuse my interference withthis discussion.

It seems to me that when I am asked "are you saved" ? it is the same question as "sola fide"; it implies a passivity ("faith alone")Faith is an essential ingredient but it is not all > Jesus said "not everyone who says Lord! Lord! will enter the kingdom, but he who DOES the will of My Father" which requires a continuing vigilance. Also Jesus said "he who loves me keeps my commandments" also a continuing activity until we die, since "all are sinners". Perhaps the two divisions of thought could be reconciled, if one were to take the position that FAITH is ESSENTIALLY not passive; it requires effort, committment to "daily take one's cross and follow Him" in Faith otherwise this gift from God, will wither & die

God Bless.

 

Hi WoHu1, Welcome to the BB. You are never intruding on discussions here. Please feel free to jump into any topic, we all welcome that.
I think I know what you are saying but always keep in mind that we are saved by grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast. That scripture has to be kept in mind when deciding what James meant. As I have said our works are what prove to ourselves we are saved. They also are how we are justified before men(i.e. "proven to be righteous"). James is not saying works make our salvation possible but he is saying that works are what show our salvation to be assured. Thanks again for posting.
Tell me W, do you believe you can lose your salvation?

Nils, Hope this day, Friday that is, finds you well!

In Love and Truth,
Brian

 

Hi guys,

The real question is whether justification and sanctification are definitively separated in Scripture or whether Scripture unites the two in such a way that one's sanctification (interior moral change) equates with justification (declarative act of one's righteousness).

I hold that God does what he declares. When he says, "Carson, you are made righteous by the merit of my only Son," then I am "made righteous", not externally, but internally. I actually share in the very life of God not by holding some certificate out that says I'm righteous while my inner man stinks of filth, but by holding out my inner man, which has really been cleansed.

I want to stress that the Catholic view is two thousand years old. It didn't change with the Protestant reformation. It's the same as it's always been. Justification has always been stressed as a declarative act, but not merely as a declarative act. That is what Protestants emphasized and required, that it's only legal. The Catholic Church has always affirmed that it's legal and declarative, but because it's God declaring it's also transformative. Sanctification is a word that emphasizes the transformative aspect but it also involves a declarative aspect. In other words the Catholic position is both/and whereas it seems to me that the Protestant position is either/or. Either faith or works, not faith and works

Notice that Paul places sanctification before justification in 1 Cor 6:11 - "But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

Protestant Christian adoption by God is a legal, forensic adoption; Catholic Christian adoption by God is real because we are actually changed, sharing in God's own divine nature.

1 Peter 1:4 - "he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature".

In Heaven, all will be holy.

Rev 21:27 - "But nothing unclean shall enter it [the New Jerusalem or God's Temple, which is Heaven], nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life."

Anyone who practices abomination isn't clean, isn't sanctified. The words "nothing unclean" signify sanctification, not merely declaration.

Our personal holiness depends upon our sanctification. Eternal life (Heaven) is the end of our personal transformation, wrought by the Spirit of Jesus:

Rom 6:22 - "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life."

This setting free from sin isn't in terms of, "Look, now all sins I commit have been forgiven, so I'm free, free at last!," but it's in terms of a new power, a new life principle, that St. Paul calls "Life in the Spirit". This life has as its end eternal Beatitude, as Paul says in Romans.

Happy Easter Friday!

Carson

[ April 05, 2002, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Hey Nils,
Real quick answer just so you don't think I forgot about this thread.

Your house example is not accurate. It would be better said that the house is built around us where we stand. The work is to step out of the house. All we have to do is accept the gift without walking away. We do not travel to God, he travels to us. More to come on your other point

In Christ,
Brian

 

Hi Nils, I am so sorry I missed your response to me. Anyway, You are talking about sin I am talking about the gift of salvation. Yes, we are "born" in Sin and outside the house of God. But salvation is like a cape that is falling directly over us. If we accept the cape we stand where we are. If we reject it, we walk away and the cape falls gently to the ground. You see it is the will of God that all should come to repentance. The gift is free and brought to the world by the "works" of man. (see how I brought that back to the original point)

I think I owe you another answer as well. Hope I have time to do it.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Postees:
The problems some have with understanding the harmony of James 2:24 and Eph.2:8,9 is they fail to understand the types of work in the Bible.
In Eph.2:8,9. Paul is discussing MERITORIOUS WORKS of salvation. He rightly states men cannot earn or merit salvation that would allow them to boast.
In Titus 3:5. Man cannot do WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS alone and be saved. Yes,man must live a good moral life and do the things God would have him to but these in and of themselves will not save.
In Gal.2:16, man is not justiified by the WORKS OF THE LAW.

Are there works that can Justify man?

Men are justified by an active faith in the grace of God . ( Romans 16:26,Gal.3:24-29,Hebrews 5:8,9, Mat. 7:21,Phil.2:12, Acts 20:32).
In James 2,this point is made by using Abraham as an example. James refers to his offering Issac in James 2:21. His faith was a working faith. If it had not been he would not have been declared righteous. This point is confirmed in Hebrews 11:6. We are taught that faith must be active to justify a man. Notice that in every example of those found faithful it was an active Workng faith. Abraham was justified by God for OFFERING Isaac. ( see Hebrews 11:17).
James 2;24 simply describes the relationship of Biblical faith to works. They are connected not disconected. In Eph. Paul teaches that it is by grace that it is through and active faith. This is harmonious with James 2:24.( Eph.2:8,9, Gal. 3:24-29). I hope this helps.
The idea of justification before men is simply a forced meaning. There is no basis for this teaching based on the text in question. God and others can see your faith.( Mat. 5:16, Mk.2:5).They see it through your works.
I hope this helps.
Frank

 

Hi Frank, Thanks for posting and for your words of wisdom. I agree with most of what you said. You did make one statement that was in error though, perhaps you didn't mean to say it. You wrote:

"God and others can see your faith.( Mat. 5:16, Mk.2:5).They see it through your works."

Frank, God doesn't have to see our works to know if we belong to him. God knows because he is God and knows all. I picture God in Heaven watching people and saying to the angels, "See that one who just gave money to the poor, I thought he was one of mine, now I know for sure" Almost makes ya laugh just thinking about it, right?

We have nothing to prove to God, I just can't say that enough.

Again, thanks for posting and as I said I agree with much of what you said.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Frank, Briguy & Carson

I think that the use of "faith" should be defined. It is not static but a dynamic thing. The "faith alone" question, is hard to answer until (at least)we establish what we mean by "faith", correct!.

Obviously FAITH
-is a gift
-can be increased (Jesus upbraided the disciples "being of little faith")
-the lack of total faith in Jesus such as that in Jhn Ch6:66 not to accept all his teaching "who can accept this teaching".

When I am asked "are you saved" I can say I believe in Jesus,! but I know not everyone who says "Lord, Lord will be saved.
When I am asked "are you saved" I think that if I had the (little)faith of St Peter I could also walk on water to Jesus, butI also know that Jesus said that "he who does the will of the Father" will inherit" and I know that Jesus will be my judge and I am not in a position to adjudicate the issue or to answer the question, only Jesus is. Correct?

God Bless.

 

Hi WoHu,

"Faith" has many different usages in the NT. There is no one "across the board" definition for all instances of "faith" in New Testament Scripture.

Paul begins and ends his epistle to the community in Rome w/ "the obedience of faith" 1:5 & 16:26. This is an interesting term to employ if the Book of the Law including the Decalogue aren't relevant to salvation. I would contend that being saved apart from "works of the law" (3:8) implies that these works are precisely those stipulations after the Golden Calf episode and does not include the precepts of the Book of the Law.

Why? Because faith empowers the Christian to live by grace, building upon the moral Law of God (which is entirely different than "works of the Law"), growing in virtue dynamically.

Cf. my post above on justification/salvation.

God bless,

Carson

 

Carson, Thanks for your words. I had to read it three times to get your meaning and basically I will stick to what I have been saying all along. Anyway, Why are you dodging my question on the thread from last week? I think it was on the "real Church". I even private messaged you to remind you. What gives? IF you have no response then admit that. If the question is unfair I am more then willing to rephrase it. Let me know!

In our Lord and Savior,
Brian