Why would the Pope pray in a mosque?

ok... so what?

what makes you think that? because they did not mention it? strange, the way the mind works

what did they get wrong?

i am not worried about embarassments.

speaking of embarassment...

here is an interview with Patriarch Raphael I:

http://www.cin.org/archives/cinjub/199906/0002.html

"On May 14th I was received by the Pope, together with a delegation composed of the Shiite Imam of Khadum mosque and the Sunni President of the council of administration of the Iraqi Islamic Bank. There was also a representative of the Iraqi ministry of religion. I renewed our invitation to the Pope, because his visit would be for us a grace from heaven. It would confirm the faith of Christians and prove the Pope's love for the whole of humanity in a country which is mainly Muslim. At the end of the audience the Pope bowed to the Muslim holy book the Qu'ran presented to him by the delegation and he kissed it as a sign of respect. The photo of that gesture has been shown repeatedly on Iraqi television and it demonstrates that the Pope is not only aware of the suffering of the Iraqi people, he has also great respect for Islam. A papal visit would be welcomed by both the people and by the authorities. After the audience I immediately sent a recommendation to the Iraqi government to make the official step of inviting the Pope to Iraq."

educate yourself.

 

Hi Rakka Rage,

I have seen the infamous photo many times and (to me) it seems to be accurate, in that Pope John Paul II showed respect to the Quran by kissing it. As a Catholic, do I totally agree with those actions? No. However, I am not up-in-arms and totally offended because I can understand the pope's intentions of showing respect (submission? no; respect? yes) to the predominate religion of the country.

The fact is that adherants of Islam worship the One and Only God. They call Him "Allah" (Arabic for "God"). Do I think that Muslims are terribly (and sadly) flawed in their rejection of the Incarnation and of Christ's sacrifice on Calvary? Of course. And so, too, the Jews. However, both Judaism and Islam promote worship of the living God (and only of God). In this singular fact, we as Christians have common ground with them. And it is this fact that the pope seizes upon to find a starting place of dialogue with Muslims and Jews alike.

Pope John Paul II, in kissing the Quran, in my opinion made a mistake. Not in his intention(which was noble) but in not realizing the scandle such a gesture could (and did) produce for those who misunderstood his intentions. We should not lose sight of the fact that we as Christians have a responsibility to preach the Gospel to all nations. The fact is that it is often far easier to reap a harvest sewn in the fertile fields of common ground than to attempt the same from the loneliness of higher ground.

God bless.

In Officio Agnus,
Deacon's Son

[ February 06, 2003, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Deacon's Son ]

 

John.3
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John.4
[22] Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

 

Rakka:

It has been said over and over. There is no evidence that the book in the picture is the Koran. Just because this website states it is does not make it so.

 

does repitition impress you?

yes there is.

i provided a quote from a Catholic who was at that meeting, that says that it is the quran. what else would you like?

 

But are we to go and worship in the building dedicated to a false god who hates christianity?

By that recokoning, we should stay away from all Jewish sites like the wailing wall as well

No, no no. Jesus said he is present wherever two or three are gathered in his name. He didn't give an exceptions list in that statement.

 

NEWSFLASH: the Jewish God is NOT a false god and DOES NOT hate Christianity.

 

Taking the sentiment that I responded to, the Jewish God must be a false God because it denies the Son in the triune God. The Jewish God must be against Christ because it is not with Christ.

This is not what I believe, it is simply my rebuttal to someone else's statement.

 

Hi, BB, thanks for posting the article. I agree with you that, while from our point of view they are in need of salvation through Christ, that Muslims, while misunderstanding God, are sincere seekers after God.

 

And what is the end thereof, johnv ? Will anybody who rejects Christ enjoy eternal life ?

 

??? because the Jews are not "with" Christ the Jewish God is not "with" Christ?

John.4
[22] Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

well then i guess i am not rebutting what you believe, but your rebuttal

 

Agreed, and the Quranic Allah of Mohammad does not fit the total discription. Thus, the Quranic Allah of Mohammad is not one and the same as Yahweh God, the biblical God of Abraham.

Sounds like a quote from the movie Highlander!

I agree. There can be only one and if you do not define Him in the terms that He has revealed about Himself and worship Him as He commands that He be worshiped then you are not worshiping the One True God. You have made up an inferior version that cannot measure up to the One True God.

Your argument would work and does work when you and I discuss the identity of God. That is because you and I, hopefully, agree on all of the same points of definition and terminology that we use to describe God. However, that is not the case with the pluralistic world we live in. Thus, the Muslim feels that his view of God is equal and identical with ours, the henotheistic Hindu says the same, the New Age guy that really believes that the "Earth Spirit" is the one true God says the same etc., etc., etc. Once you allow God to be defined in any way outside of the way that He has defined Himself you are in error and are no longer worshiping the One True God of the Bible.

This is true for every non-believer in the world. When they come to trust the message of Christ they are saved. Anything else is false religion and not worshiping the One True God of the Bible.

Yes, there can be only one reality.

No, they do not worship the true reality of the revealed Yahweh God. They worship what they believe to be the One God of reality; however, in reality they worship a false and distorted man-made religious figure that they call Allah because they have been deceived by the Devil. They may truely want to worship the One True God they just have not been introduced to that God. So they fall back on a religious system. Religion is man's attempt to reach God. Biblical Christianity is God's method for reaching and saving a sinful and fallen mankind. There is a big difference.

Yours in Christ,

Bibleboy

 

Hi, BB, thanks for posting the article. I agree with you that, while from our point of view they are in need of salvation through Christ, that Muslims, while misunderstanding God, are sincere seekers after God. </font>[/QUOTE]Hello Johnv,

The problem is that their sincerity and even devotion will not save them because they have rejected Christ.

 

And what is the end thereof, johnv ? Will anybody who rejects Christ enjoy eternal life ? I don't ever think you'll find me sayng anything to the contrary that rejection of Christ is rejection of Salvation.

The problem is that their sincerity and even devotion will not save them because they have rejected Christ.
I wasn't discussing matters of salvation. Rather, I was touching on what you said regarding their sincerity. I've always held the view that anyone who as the opportunity to accept Christ and rejects Him is without salvation.

There have been other threads on what the prereguisite is to reject Christ. Rather than rehash it here, I think it best to say we're in agreement, and leave the symantics to another topic.

I'm sure many of us have met a lot of sincere and honest unsaved people, and likewise have met a lot of incencere and dishonest saved people. Such is often the way of life.

[ February 06, 2003, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

Religion is man's attempt to reach God. Biblical Christianity is God's method for reaching and saving a sinful and fallen mankind.

Christianity is a religion, imperfect. Christianity is not God's way.

Only Jesus is God's way. Jesus didn't say "this is the way", he said, "I am the way".

The only reason I bring this up is that too many well meaning people put their eggs in their church or demoination when instead they should be giving their eggs to Christ.

 

What about those who actively reject Jesus, but cling to their original religion? (eg Muslims)

 

What about those who actively reject Jesus, but cling to their original religion? (eg Muslims)

Asked and answered.

 

Ahhhhhhh, I think St. Paul had something to say about this:

2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Yeah, those of the light should have no dealings with those of the darkness other than to point them to the light.

I have a book on my shelf called "Witnesses for Christ - Orthodox Christian Neomartyrs of the Ottoman Period 1437 - 1860" It details how the Orthodox Christians of these times resisted their Ottoman (Muslim) conquerers and died rather than BETRAY CHRIST!!!

"One day Chrestos was confronted by a group of Janissaries, in the main Orthodox Christians by birth but now fanatical Muslims who, in a provocative manner, insulted and ridiculed the Orthodox Faith. The prudent thing to do would have been for Chrestos to keep silent and let the insults pass. But he took up the challenge and with courage and forthrightness proclaimed Jesus Christ as God and Savior of the world. As far as the Islamic religion was concerned, he said to his listeners, it was a crude and false religion, whose so-called prophet he declared was the beast of the Apocalypse and the forerunner of the anti-christ.

Hearing this, the Janissaries fell upon Chrestos and beat him mercilessly. Moreover they demanded he recall his statements and become a Muslim himself.

Chrestos, of course, would not, even for a moment consider doing such a thing. "No," he responded, "Christ is both God and Savior." Standing proudly, he added, "I was born an Orthodox Christian and I will die an Orthodox Christian."

Chrestos' response angered the Janissaries who too Chrestos before the judicial authorities. After being questioned by the kadi, Chrestos was tortured with the idea that he would relent and deny Christ and become Muslim. But Chrestos remained firm in his adherence to the faith in Jesus Christ. Finally, the kadigave up trying to force him to convert and sentenced him to death. He was then taken to the place of execution and burned alive. He had so angered the Muslim religious authorities that they left what remained of his body exposed for a month. To their surprise, however, Chrestos' body did not deteriorate and, for the first three nights, a bright light shone from above bathing it in radiance."

This book is filled with stories of men and women who basically told the Muslims to go pound sand when confronted with their demon god allah.

While I continue to honor the office and headship of the papacy, I am less than thrilled at such actions as kissing a Qu'ran. I think that perhaps "Traditional" Catholics share my view on this.

There is such a thing as TRUTH and such a thing as ERROR. While we should not go out of our way to offend people (the Cross will offend plenty!!) we nonetheless must not offer people false hope in their false gods either.

I do not understand the Roman rite at all and some of the things which they do.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed -- Eastern Orthodox in Communion with Rome.

 

Hello Johnv,

You are correct, Jesus did say "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Farher except through Me" (John 14:6, NKJV). So Jesus is the way--and His way is by means of the Cross. Jesus also said, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me" (Luke 9:23, NKJV). Following Christ is following biblical Christianity. Do you know of some other way to follow Christ? God the Father sent Christ the Son into the world to seek and to save the lost. He, Christ, established the foundation of the church, which is biblical Christianity (the apostle's teaching). Then when He returned to the Father's side in Glory He sent the Holy Spirit to instruct, help, and guide us. You are playing semantics when you say, "Christianity is not God's way. Only Jesus is God's way. Jesus didn't say 'this is the way', he said, 'I am the way'." And it is a dangerous game you are playing to make such a statment.

 

Following Christ is following biblical Christianity. Do you know of some other way to follow Christ?

Biblical Christianity is a religious method of following Christ, but it is not synonymous to following Christ. The cart may follow the horse, but it is not the horse.

Remember when Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath"? So it is with the church. We are made for Christ, but Christianity is made for us.