Judgment Grace and Sin

BobRyan · Apr 11, 2004

All Christians (or almost all) believe that a saved person can sin, can suffer for that sin but is at the same time not "lost".

Most Christians also believe that a person can eventually go from being saved to lost - depending on the choices they make.

All Christians (or almost all) believe that the judgment of God distinguishes that impossibly fine line between pretending to be a Christian and actually being saved. We also believe that the judgment of God works for salvation in the Hebrews 12 sense where God disciplines His own wayward sons and daughters.

And most Christians believe that the judgment of God can determine the point where a person goes from being saved to lost.

Here are the questions --

#1. Does your faith allow for judgment of the saints to be a "good thing"? As in "judgment passed in favor of the saints"? Or is it always negative?

#2. What is the relationship between judgment and grace - rebellion vs obedience in places like Matt 7 and Romans 2:13?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Romans 2:
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Click to expand...

Matt 7 :
21 "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "" Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 ""And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Click to expand...

#3. When Paul says that "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" for deads done in the body - both the good ones and the bad ones ...is he speaking of the future?

What does the Bible say is the future "reward" for bad deeds? Hint: Are the bad deeds "sins"? Are they "Forgotten"? If so - how are we judged for forgotten sins?

</font>[/QUOTE]In Christ,

Bob

music4Him · Apr 11, 2004

Bob,
You present a very interesting debate with the two bible verses you posted.
Exspcially in Matt7.
I have been watching the "Way of the Master"/with Don Comfort & Kirt Cameron and they bring up these scriptures to show a person why they need a savior.

Matthew 5:21-22 says:
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

And also in Matthew 5:27-28-

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Bob asked:
--------------------------------------------------
#1. Does your faith allow for judgment of the saints to be a "good thing"? As in "judgment passed in favor of the saints"? Or is it always negative?
--------------------------------------------------
M4H~ Answer: yes it can be a good thing.....as long as your faith is in Jesus. Matt.7:15-20 says that we should look at the fruit too....I'm taking that also goes for churches and the preachers.
I would think any negative judgement would be for those who want the pie and eat the cake too christians (Live it up drink, party, ...ect, and don't go to church when things are going good, but when things go wrong its like..... I can't understand why every thing always happens to me.)

--------------------------------------------------
#2. What is the relationship between judgment and grace - rebellion vs obedience in places like Matt 7 and Romans 2:13?
--------------------------------------------------
? Guess I'm not awake enough to answer this question. But I'm gonna try so don't laugh at me if I make no sence. All I know is if I am a christian...I'll want to be in obediance to God and exspecially the 2 love commandments for sure.....i.e. #1.Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.
#2. Love thy neighbor as thyself.

--------------------------------------------------
#3. When Paul says that "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" for deads done in the body - both the good ones and the bad ones ...is he speaking of the future?
--------------------------------------------------
Hummmmmm well Bob this is something because Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I see this as if He looked ahead and seen me, you and all of us and all that we were going to do wrong and "good". Would this be predestination thinking? Rom.8:29-30 and Eph.1:5,11

--------------------------------------------------
What does the Bible say is the future "reward" for bad deeds? Hint: Are the bad deeds "sins"? Are they "Forgotten"? If so - how are we judged for forgotten sins?
--------------------------------------------------
I think bad deeds are sins. I don't know if they are "forgotten" perse(sp?) but aren't they covered by the blood of Jesus?

Music4Him

GH · Apr 11, 2004

Bob, it isn't about you or me or our sins or our faith - it's all about HIM - CHRIST TRIUMPHANT!

Evil does not exist for ever!....Christ Triumphant!

"He ascended up far above all heavens that He might fill all things." -Eph. 4:10-

If Christ is to fill all things--the universe--how can evil exist for ever? This cannot be eluded by asking whether Christ, as God, has not always filled all things; for, to the Apostle Paul, there is some further and special sense in which Christ is to fill all things by the expulsion of evil as a consequence of His completed work of reconciliation.

By Him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things on earth, or things in heaven." -Col. 1:15-20-

"All things must find their meeting point, their reconciliation at length in Him from Whom they took their rise; in the Word as the mediatorial agent; and through the Word in the Father as the Primary Source. The Word is the final cause as well as the creative agent in the universe...."Source, Guide and Goal of all that is"

This ultimate goal of the present dispensation in time is similarly stated in several passages.

*** Sometimes it is represented as the birth throe and deliverance of all creation through Christ. -Rom. 8:19-

*** Sometimes it is the absolute and final subjection of universal nature to Him. -1 Cor. 15:28-

*** Sometimes it is the reconciliation of all things through Him. -Col. 1:20-

*** Sometimes it is the recapitulation, the gathering up in one Head of the universe in Him. -Eph. 1:19-

"That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." -Phil. 2:10,11-

Every created thing in heaven and on earth and under the earth united in song; bowing in worship. Every knee in heaven, in earth, under the earth, bowing willingly in thanksgiving and proclaiming our great God's praise! This is the force of the original Greek!

Romans 8:38,39

"For I am convinced that there is nothing in death or life, in the realm of spirits or superhuman powers, in the world as it is or the world as it shall be; in the forces of the universe, in heights or depths--nothing in all creation that can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (N.E.B.)

"I am quite sure that nothing in death or in life, no angel and no superhuman being, nothing in the world as it is and nothing in the world as it will be, no power of the heights and no power of the depths, nor anything else in all the created universe will be able to part us from the love which God has shown us in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Wm. Barclay New Testament)

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (ASV)

"I have become absolutely convinced that neither death nor life, neither messenger of Heaven nor monarch of earth, neither what happens today nor what may happen tomorrow, neither a power from on high nor a power from below, nor anything else in God's whole world has any power to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." J.B. Phillips

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (KJV)

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither the lower ranks of evil angels nor the higher, neither things present nor things future, nor the forces of nature, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God which rests upon us in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Weymouth)

"For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor messengers, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things about to be, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (YLT)

"For I am certain that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor powers, neither height nor depth nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God that comes to us in Christ Jesus our Lord." (The New Am. Bible)

"For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor messengers, nor sovereignties, nor the present, not what is impending, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord." (Concordant Literal)

BobRyan · Apr 12, 2004

I agree with you M4H - sin is down to the level of "thought".

Originally posted by music4Him:
Bob asked:
--------------------------------------------------
#1. Does your faith allow for judgment of the saints to be a "good thing"? As in "judgment passed in favor of the saints"? Or is it always negative?
--------------------------------------------------
M4H~ Answer: yes it can be a good thing.....as long as your faith is in J esus. Matt.7:15-20 says that we should look at the fruit too....I'm taking that also goes for churches and the preachers.
I would think any negative judgement would be for those who want the pie and eat the cake too christians (Live it up drink, party, ...ect, and don't go to church when things are going good, but when things go wrong its like..... I can't understand why every thing always happens to me.)
Click to expand...

So in that "good context" would you see the saints actually "wanting judgment to be passed" on them (in their favor)?

Bob asks
--------------------------------------------------
#2. What is the relationship between judgment and grace - rebellion vs obedience in places like Matt 7 and Romans 2:13?
--------------------------------------------------
M4H responds

? Guess I'm not awake enough to answer this question. But I'm gonna try so don't laugh at me if I make no sense. All I know is if I am a christian...I'll want to be in obediance to God and exspecially the 2 love commandments
Click to expand...

Ok so obedience to the Word of God is a key "fruit" of salvation but the case Christ makes in Matt 7 says that those without the "good fruit" are not really saved.

So when you say that a natural outcome of being born again is wanting to do the will of God - is that really 'iron clad' to the point that Christ makes it appear - that without the fruit - no salvation (or is the fruit just a "nice to have"?)

M4H

Bob asks --
--------------------------------------------------
#3. When Paul says that "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" for deads done in the body - both the good ones and the bad ones ...is he speaking of the future?
--------------------------------------------------

Hummmmmm well Bob this is something because Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I see this as if He looked ahead and seen me, you and all of us and all that we were going to do wrong and "good". Would this be predestination thinking? Rom.8:29-30 and Eph.1:5,11
Click to expand...

Which would be "for we have already stood at the judgment seat of Christ on the cross and our bad deeds were forgiven".

But the sense of 2Cor 5 is very different -- it is an ongoing motivation based on a future judgment.

9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Bob Asks about 2Cor 5 --
--------------------------------------------------
What does the Bible say is the future "reward" for bad deeds? Hint: Are the bad deeds "sins"? Are they "Forgotten"? If so - how are we judged for forgotten sins?
--------------------------------------------------

M4H responds -
I think bad deeds are sins. I don't know if they are "forgotten" per se'(sp?) but aren't they covered by the blood of Jesus?
[/QB]
Click to expand...

Ahh there is the rub! For the saints - for those saved all sins (all bad deeds) are covered by the blood of Christ. We will not go to heaven and find that God has dredged up all of our bad deeds to give us "bad consequences in heaven" regarding them.

That's the good news.

The bad news is that if the saints do NOT given an account of their bad deeds in heaven (because all of our sin is forgiven, blotted out and not brought up again) -- then the judgment that Christ speaks of must be before heaven and at at time when BOTH good deeds and bad ones must be considered in judgment (Romans 2:3-15 comes to mind).

It must be at a time of separating the sheep from the goats where the "deeds" of the people are being highlighted during that separation. Deeds that may be good or evil. A judment based on the Matt 7 principle of Christ - "you Will know them by their fruits".

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 12, 2004

Originally posted by GH:
Bob, it isn't about you or me or our sins or our faith - it's all about HIM - CHRIST TRIUMPHANT!

Evil does not exist for ever!....Christ Triumphant!

Click to expand...

I agree. Sin and rebellion against God does not last forever in the universe. God will make an end of it.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 14, 2004

I notice that in the Bible sometimes the "context" for judgment is "only negative", but in other cases it is "both good and bad" depending on whether you are one of the saints.

In Christ,

Bob

GH · Apr 15, 2004

"For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor messengers, nor sovereignties, nor the present, not what is impending, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord." (Concordant Literal)

"I am persuaded"= Peitho=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...982&version=kjv

"That neither death= thanatos=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...288&version=kjv

"Nor life"= Zoe=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...222&version=kjv

"Nor angels"= Aggelos=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...=32&version=kjv

"Nor Principalities"= Arche=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...746&version=kjv

"Nor powers"= Dunamis=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...410&version=kjv

"Nor things present"= Enistemi=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...764&version=kjv

"Nor things to come"= Mello=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...195&version=kjv

"Nor height"= Hupsoma=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...313&version=kjv

"Nor depth"= Bathos=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...899&version=kjv

"Nor any creature"= Ktisis=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...937&version=kjv

"Shall be able"= Dunamai=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...410&version=kjv

"To separate us"= Chorizo=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...563&version=kjv

"From"= Apo=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...575&version=kjv

"The love of God"= Agape Theos

"Which is in"= en

"Christ Jesus"= Christos Lesous

Jehovah Is Salvation
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...424&version=kjv

"Our Lord"= Kurios=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...962&version=kjv

Hi Bob, here's part of a study I've been involved in recently with other people who believe that Christ's finished work on the Cross is sufficient to save to the uttermost all of creation:

Assuredly the Bible is not the story of sin, deepening into eternal ruin, of God's Son, worsted in His utmost effort; it is from the opening to the close the story of grace stronger than sin--of life victorious over every form of death--of God triumphing over evil.

All= Pas=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...er=3956&version=

"Pas Die"= Pas ApothneskoApothnesko=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...ber=599&version=

"In Christ shall pas be made alive."

Be made Alive= Zoopoieo
Zoopoieo=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...er=2227&version=

"But every/pas man in his own order"
1. Christ the firstfruits.
2. Afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
3. The onward progression of our Lord's Intention In Stages
a. The delivering up of the kingdom to the Father.
b. The putting down of all/pas rule & the putting down of all/pas authority and power.
c. Christ must reign, till He has put all/pas enemies under his feet.

"But every man" = Hekastos

Hekastos=

"Hekastos in his own order"

Order= Tagma=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...er=5001&version=

"Christos the firstfruits"
Firstfruits= Aparche=
Zoopoieo=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...er=2227&version="But every/pas man in his own order"

1. Christ the firstfruits.
2. Afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
3. The onward progression of our Lord's Intention In Stages
a. The delivering up of the kingdom to the Father.
b. The putting down of all/pas rule & the putting down of all/pas authority and power.
c. Christ must reign, till He has put all/pas enemies under his feet.

"But every man" = Hekastos
Hekastos=
"Hekastos in his own order"
Order= Tagma=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...er=5001&version=
"Christos the firstfruits"
Firstfruits= Aparche=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...ber=536&version=
"When He shall have delivered up"
He shall have delivered up= Paradidomi=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...er=3860&version=
"When He shall have put down"
Put down= Katargeo=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...er=2673&version=
"For He must reign til He hath put"
Hath put= Tithemi=http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...er=5087&version=
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed"
Shall be destroyed= Katargeo
Katargeo=
To render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative.
To cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency.
To deprive of force, influence, power.
To cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish.
To cease, to pass away, be done away.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...er=2673&version=

"Katargeo is death"
Death= Thanatos=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...er=2288&version=
"For He hath put pas under His feet"
Hath put= hupotasso
Under= hupotasso=
To arrange under, to subordinate.
To subject, put in subjection.
To subject one's self, obey.
To submit to one's control.
To yield to one's admonition or advice.
To obey, be subject.
A Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden".
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...er=5293&version=

"And when pas shall be subdued unto Him"
Subdued= Hupotasso=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...er=5293&version=

"Then shall the Son himself also be subject"
Be subject=hupotasso=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...er=5293&version=

"Then shall the Son himself also be hupotasso unto Him that put"
Unto Him that put= hupotasso=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...er=5293&version=

Respectfully submitted in Christ Jesus our Lord,

GH

HisMercy · Apr 16, 2004

"Most Christians also believe that a person can eventually go from being saved to lost - depending on the choices they make."

If most believe this, then most believe they have a say in what God does. HIS PERFECT WILL AND PURPOSE is not subject to our choices. Romans 9 is clear on this topic.
Verse 10-23 "And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac, (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"

GH · Apr 17, 2004

HISMERCY (wonderful screen name),

Oh yes, MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGMENT! I wonder why our blessed Lord would teach us that! Maybe because it is HIS nature - and isn't HE conforming us into HIS image?

It's all about love - the kind that transforms, redeems, reconciles and restores,

GH

GH · Apr 17, 2004

1 Corinthians 15: 21-28

21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Psl. 110:1- Matt 22:44- Luke 20:43- Acts 2:34- Heb 1:13
26. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Our Father's purpose is "That he might fill all things."

There is abounding associated with the liberal supply of Father's furnishing; for it is in full measure and filled to the brim! He will make full. He will cause to abound and render full. I like the word "pleres", the exercise of the Glory One in filling empty and hollow vessels with His completeness and perfection, lacking nothing. "That He may fill the all"

Col. 1:20,21
"And having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself....and you, likewise, who once were estranged from Him, and with your mind at war with Him by a life of sin hath He reconciled."

Reconcile= Apokatallasso
Apokatallasso=
To reconcile completely.
To reconcile back again.
To bring back a former state of harmony.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...ber=604&version=

Apokatallasso Rooted In Katallasso
Katallasso=
To change.
To exchange.
To reconcile those who are at variance.
To return to favour with.
To be reconciled to one.
To receive one into favour.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons...er=2644&version=

To Reconcile= Apokatallasso
Let's Talk English!

To cause to be friendly again.
To conciliate anew.
To restore to friendship.
To bring back to harmony.
To cause to be no longer at variance.
To reconcile persons who have quarreled.
To bring to acquiescence or to bring to content or quiet submission. To bring to agreement.
To bring into consonance and accord. To make compatible.
To call back to fellowship.
To restore to favour after estrangement.
To call back into fellowship.
To adjust. To settle.
To adjust the way you think.
To make congrous and consistent.
To reconcile an idea with reality.
To cause to submit.
The process of making two things in agreement which are seemingly opposed.
To settle. To harmonize. To make compatible.
To bring together. To conciliate. To placate. To re-unite. To adjust to. To
resign oneself to.
To re-establish a close relationship.
To bring oneself to accept (reconcile my thinking with yours)....no longer
opposed.
To reconcile the way you think.

"But the whole is from God, who restored/katallasso us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the office of restoration/katallage; since God was in Christ leading back/katallasso the whole world to Himself, not reckoning up their sins against them: and He deposited with us the reason of that restoration/katallage."

All glory praise and honor to You, Almighty Father\o/

BobRyan · Apr 17, 2004

There are a number of places where Christ reveals the details of the judgment - both the good and the bad "details".

Matt 7:

13 "" Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 ""For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
15 ""Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 ""You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 ""So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 ""A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "" Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 ""So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "" Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 ""And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 17, 2004

As in Matt 7 there are other places where great detail is given to the "positive" and the 'negative' impacts of the jugment that is future.

Romans 2

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God[b/].
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Click to expand...

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 17, 2004

Heb 6

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Click to expand...

I hesitate to revise this as though these people are "controlling God" by falling away from their state of repentance, and being filled with the Holy Spirit and having escaped the death of the sinful nature - the 2nd death penalty - they fall away.

Instead of their choice (or Adam's choice) being examples of "controlling God" it is simply God showing the consequence of their choice.

When a parent shows a child the consequence of choice - the child is not "controlling the parent". Rather the child is experiencing the rules and boundaries set by the parent. The child is learning that rebellion does not have the same consequence as obedience.

In Christ,

Bob

Jude · Apr 17, 2004

This is where the Roman Catholic distinction between 'mortal' and 'venial' sins is helpful. There are sins -such as murder- that would put one outside of God's grace. There are others that are not as serious -such as gluttony- but nevertheless hinder the development of God's grace within a Christian. I do believe that OSAS is a false doctrine, and a big reason why holiness is not a 'big deal' in the Protestant world.

Case in point was my 'Revelation' Bible Study the other night. In attendance were Christians of various 'stripes'. One lady, who no-doubt loves the Lord, an evangelical/charismatic said, (the discussion was regarding the 7 letters to the churches in Revelation, and their -except for 2 of them- admonition to be holy), "oh, I don't think in those terms. After all, I'm covered in the blood." I think she represents the mind-set of many Protestants today, and why the church has so-little impact on our culture.

Lorelei · Apr 17, 2004

Originally posted by BobRyan:
#1. Does your faith allow for judgment of the saints to be a "good thing"? As in "judgment passed in favor of the saints"? Or is it always negative?
Click to expand...

The judgement of the saint is a good thing. The word Paul used to describe the judgement seat for the saint was Bema. This is believed to be in reference to the "Bema Seat" which was the place that athletes stood in order to receive their rewards. This was a positive thing. The winners were the only ones standing in the Bema seat.

This is not the same word used for judgment when it describes the final judgment of those who are not in Christ. This word is krisis which actually means to comdemn.

When Christians are in their judgment seat (Bema seat) they will be given their rewards. They can not be judged according to their sins because those were covered on the cross. God has forgotten those sins to remember them no more.

Heb 8:12
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
(NIV)
Click to expand...

Originally posted by BobRyan:
#2. What is the relationship between judgment and grace - rebellion vs obedience in places like Matt 7 and Romans 2:13?
Click to expand...

In Matthew 7 those who are judged were never under grace. They were lost, merely doing works in Christ's name while not knowing who Christ is. They are judged because they rejected the offer of grace. No one who has God's grace will be judged (condemned).

I am not quite certain what you mean in regards to Romans 2. The book of Romans speaks clearly that we are no longer under the law, but are now under grace. The law was made so that all who obeyed it would be righteous, but it also proved to us that no one was able to obey the whole law. That is where grace comes in.

Rom 3:21-25

21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
(NIV)
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
#3. When Paul says that "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" for deads done in the body - both the good ones and the bad ones ...is he speaking of the future?

What does the Bible say is the future "reward" for bad deeds? Hint: Are the bad deeds "sins"? Are they "Forgotten"? If so - how are we judged for forgotten sins?
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There is no future "reward" for sins because God has forgotten them. We are made "righteous" in Christ, period.

So what is the bad? I am not quite certain. This is something that I have been studying becaue I know that this can't mean our sins, because God's Word is clear, those have been forgiven.

The context may hint at the meaning.

2 Cor 5:12-13
12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart.
(NIV)
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I think our motives (what is in our heart) plays a part here. It might be like this, we are rewarded for everything we do in the Spirit. But anything we do in the flesh (even if it is something "good") will not be rewarded. How many people do you know that are working hard for their "crowns?" If their motivation is simply to receive a reward I don't think they will get one. No, we are to walk in the Spirit and that is all that will be rewarded.

Furthermore, many people have this vision of a person crying and feeling "shame" while God goes over every deed we have done. I don't see that scripturally. Those things are far away from God, as far as the east is from the west. If he can't remember them, how can He bring them up again?

~Lorelei

Lorelei · Apr 17, 2004

Originally posted by Jude:
This is where the Roman Catholic distinction between 'mortal' and 'venial' sins is helpful. There are sins -such as murder- that would put one outside of God's grace. There are others that are not as serious -such as gluttony- but nevertheless hinder the development of God's grace within a Christian.
Click to expand...

But that is the problem, it is the Roman Catholic distinction, not God's. I consider this harmful, not helpful. The Bible is clear that sin is sin and all will be judged. Breaking one law makes you guilty of all of it.

James 2:10
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
(NIV)
Click to expand...

When we are saved, ALL sins are forgiven forever. If you lose that, there is no sacrifice left, hence no other way to get it "back."

Heb 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all....12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God....18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
(NIV)
Click to expand...

The Bible does not list one sin that takes us out of God's grace. There is no scripture that says "If you do (fill in the blank) then you will lose the eternal grace that I gave you."

Holiness is no big deal to those who do not understand the scriptures. To many, holiness is a big deal but it is rendered meaningless because they are trying to attain it apart from God. Holiness can not be reached by obeying man made regulations. This only gives an appearance of being helpful, in reality it lacks value.

Col 2:23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
(NIV)
Click to expand...

~Lorelei

BobRyan · Apr 17, 2004

Originally posted by Jude:
This is where the Roman Catholic distinction between 'mortal' and 'venial' sins is helpful. There are sins -such as murder- that would put one outside of God's grace. There are others that are not as serious -such as gluttony- but nevertheless hinder the development of God's grace within a Christian. I do believe that OSAS is a false doctrine, and a big reason why holiness is not a 'big deal' in the Protestant world.

Case in point was my 'Revelation' Bible Study the other night. In attendance were Christians of various 'stripes'. One lady, who no-doubt loves the Lord, an evangelical/charismatic said, (the discussion was regarding the 7 letters to the churches in Revelation, and their -except for 2 of them- admonition to be holy), "oh, I don't think in those terms. After all, I'm covered in the blood." I think she represents the mind-set of many Protestants today, and why the church has so-little impact on our culture.
Click to expand...

You make some good points. The most telling is that any Christian today would take a look at something in scripture (and especially so in the NT) and say "Oh I don't agree with that part of God's Word because I have some other opionion that is not compatible with it".

That kind of thinking is devastating to the Gospel.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 17, 2004

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jude:
This is where the Roman Catholic distinction between 'mortal' and 'venial' sins is helpful. There are sins -such as murder- that would put one outside of God's grace
---------------------------------------

Here I think you are speaking of a saved person who later chooses to be a mass murderer and thereby "falls from Grace" as Paul states in Galatians 5 such that it is "impossible to renew them AGAIN" as he says in Hebrews 6.

In other words it is not that a murderer can not find grace and be saved, rather it is that a saved person can not later choose to embrace murder as think "I am still ok with God". In fact as Paul says in 1Cor 6 "Be NOT deceived...those people do not go to heaven".

(My paraphrase).

But the Catholic distinction is purely man made for it says things like - skipping mass even one time - is a mortal sin. That is - you die and go directly to hell if you die having skipped mass without a really good "excuse". It does not hold itself "Accountable" to the Bible concept of "Falling away" that we see in Hebrews 6 and in Galatians 5 where it is life decision - a consistent pattern - rather than a one-time or incidental sin.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 17, 2004

Loreiel said

The Bible does not list one sin that takes us out of God's grace. There is no scripture that says "If you do (fill in the blank) then you will lose the eternal grace that I gave you."
Click to expand...

True to a certain point. But beyond that we have the clear word to those who are saved found in 1Cor 6

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God
Click to expand...

In Christ,

Bob

GH · Apr 21, 2004

There are a number of places where Christ reveals the details of the judgment - both the good and the bad "details".

Matt 7:

13 "" Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 ""For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
15 ""Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 ""You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 ""So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 ""A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "" Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 ""So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "" Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 ""And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

In Christ,

Bob

Hi Bob,

Yes, Jesus said this and many more things. He also said that no one can come to Him unless the Father draw him.

If we look at Romans eight, we see that it is God who starts the process and does what is needed to bring salvation to completion. It is all God, from start to finish! The hardest thing for man to “do” is ceasing from his labor and receiving unmerited favor. Scripture declare that one is saved by "grace through faith." Jesus Christ is the "author and finisher" of our faith. Faith is a gift which we cannot receive apart from God opening our hearts because we are quite incapable of coming to God apart from this faith. Once this faith is received, it is Jesus Christ who finishes the work in us, not ourselves - lest we boast. God only receives the glory. Many Scriptures make this quite clear. However, there appear to be Scriptures which say the opposite and only the Holy Spirit can sort out the confusion for a believer.

I know if one believes in free-will, it is difficult to understand that it is not our faith that saves us, it is the faith of Jesus Christ which we receive as an unmerited gift that saves us, not our faith in Him. So where do the majority Christians get the idea that salvation begins by our putting our faith or trust in Jesus Christ instead of receiving faith from Jesus Christ? I don’t think it comes from the Spirit of God – but is human/carnal thinking which puts itself above everything that is God. We think we must do something. We think we must work for the free gift. We think that if we make the right decision, we’ll be saved. This is what Paul called the "ministry of condemnation" and the "ministry of death." (2 Cor. Chapter 3)

Jesus came under the law to the nation of Israel. Much of what He said is to the Jew under the law. Then Paul comes along with his gospel of grace. And as you well know, the debate has gone on for two thousand years. So what shall we do about this dilemma? It is good to allow yourself to open-mindedly read Scriptures which seem to contradict each other without favoring one set over another. The Holy Spirit will eventually sort everything out if we do not make conclusions on our own or follow the interpretations and traditions of men – which make scripture of no effect. My hope is that we see, by the gracious power of the Holy Spirit, the heart of Christ’s teachings – as He shows us the love of God - for judgment is God’s “strange work.” I offer this for those who may be open for it: God judges based on what we KNOW, not what we DO. Believers who KNOW better will be judged more harshly than those who don’t or – GASP - more harshly than unbelievers.

Rather than preaching sin, judgment and everlasting punishment from the pulpits of the world let’s bring the Good News to all for it is His KINDNESS that brings us to repentance.

Respectfully submitted in the Name above All Names, Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. \o/
GH

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