Trib begins

My brother Jude, I gratefully accept the PAN tag.
Ray, what I was trying to say but apparently don't have the verbal skills to do so is: The more He breaks my ego, and all that prides itself in the flesh, the closer I get to Him. The closer I get to Him the more I intuitively know about His Kingdom. It is then the Scriptures begin to validate whether or not what I hear in my conscience is from me or Him. When those two witnesses agree then I know it is the Holy One. Many of the doctrines I held dearly have fallen by the wayside in that Light. Does that make any sense?

 

shewfly,

You said, 'My brother Jude, I gratefully accept the PAN tag.
Ray, what I was trying to say but apparently don't have the verbal skills to
do so is: The more He breaks my ego, and all that prides itself in the flesh,
the closer I get to Him.'

Ray: 'I know what you are talking about. He sure has the abilities to destroy our pride. I do love the Lord and pray also to the Father and the Holy Spirit, but I most often feel that I fall far, far short of worshiping Him the way I would really like to do. And yet I see others who love Him less than I do, at least as I view their lives.'

You said, 'The closer I get to Him the more I intuitively know
about His Kingdom. It is then the Scriptures begin to validate whether or not
what I hear in my conscience is from me or Him. When those two witnesses
agree then I know it is the Holy One.'

Ray: The Word of God is the final document of truth, because it comes from the Godhead. The Holy Spirit within you [I John 2:27] will guide you into all truth, if you study and know your Bible.'

'Many of the doctrines I held dearly have fallen by the wayside in that Light. Does that make any sense?'

Ray: It makes some sense to me, but the Bible, God's Word is the final authority. Sometimes we can believe certain things are right, while in fact, they can be incorrect.

 

A little interjection here about the word "star" and the ancient knowledge of stars. Today we reserve the word Star for self glowing giant balls of gas, any one of which if it were to approach us it would be truer to say the earth fell into it rather than to say it fell to earth.

But the ancients had no conception of such a thing at all and therefore called anything in the sky that was a point of light a "star". The planets, remember, were originally "wandering stars" in the ancient world, and meteorites were "falling stars" and we should realize those were legitimate references for the word "star" as they knew stars. Therefore any falling meteor could literally be a star in terms of the way the word star was used in the first century.

Bear that in mind as you exegete the passages in Revelation that speak of "stars" and decide what is to be symbolic and what is to be literal.

 

Last night on television the news reported a meterorite that hit the earth in Australia. It looked to be about eight inches around by way of size. The people were in a room close to where it hit. It came through the roof, ceiling and bounced off a sofa to the floor. It was dark black.

Doesn't gravitational pull draw these meterorites through our atmosphere into that which we call the earth? That's what I remember about science; we do not just bump into other meteorites.

 

Well, of course gravity pulls them down! But its also true we "bump into" them. Meteorites the size of the one that fell in Australia are greatly slowed down by the atmosphere as they come down, so yes, they can "bounce off a sofa" when they get here. But if one the size of a mountain comes along - well, ask the dinosaurs, they'll tell you what it was like.

 

The third and fourth Trumpet Judgment during the future Great Tribulation has some things to say about stars/meterors hitting the earth. We may only guess that it will send the earth reeling to and fro on its' axis. [Revelation 8:10-13]

His people will be in Heaven before this strange turn of human events. [I Thess. 4:17]

Regards,
Ray

 

Ray Berrian: "His people will be in Heaven before this
strange turn of human events. [I Thess. 4:17]"

Amen, Brother Ray Berrian -- Preach it!

 

In Rev 20 we see the first resurrection to be that of the saints. It shows us exactly where the 1Thess 4 resurrection of the saints takes place in relation to the 1000 years.

That means that all the Rev 16 plagues have already taken place and in fact the Rev 19 appearing of Christ has just taken place when you get to the Rev 20 "First resurrection".

That first resurrection starts the 1000 year clock ticking - according to John in Rev 20.

The amazing thing is that this is all spelled out in easy to read - direct simple terms in Rev 19 and 20. No gyrations or spiritual gymnastics needed to rework the text into saying something it does not. But few Christians will accept that when it comes to these two chapters.

What amazes me is that the RCC had so much success convincing people to read "no-millenium" and "no Thousand years" when the Bible said "Thousand years".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Some day look up "first"
in a dictionary. Then tell me i'm wrong
(per the definition of "first") to
teach multiple first resurrections.

Here for good sport is my essay on
Resurrections:

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
(goy is an Israeli name for gentiles)
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
(Yisrael is an Israeli name for Israel)
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA:
--The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisarel passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.

Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 26 May 2004;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised before
the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

Excellent job, Ed.

 

John is looking forward - to the future. He is not going to look back into events in Elijah's day and then say "This the first resurrection" in the future of the church --- "obviously".

In 1Thess 4 - Paul speaks of this resurrection saying that we are to "comfort one another" with these words.

In Romans 8 we find that church longing and "Groaning" for that "First Resurrection" - the "redemption of the body".

Peter says we are to "Fix our hope COMPLETELY" on this event.

This singular event - that occurs at the return of Christ according to Rev 19 and 20 - is the focus of the church. It is the "big deal" this "main event" this "Focus of the church" as we see it in the NT text - that John spends so much time on (an entire two chapter sequence).

And no wonder.

In Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan: "This singular event - that occurs at the return of Christ according to Rev 19 and 20 - is the focus of the church."

I've shown this event is NOT singular.
I've shown this event is not shown to be
singular by Revelation 19 and 20.
If you contend that the event is singular then
SHOW YOUR PROOF.

Revelation 20:4 (HSCB):

Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them
who were given authority to judge. I also
saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because
of their testimony about Jesus and because of
God's word, who had not worshiped the beast or
his image, and who had not accepted the mark on
their foreheads or their hands. They came to
life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.

The King James version has an AND between the two groups
of people who have been resurrected/raptured:

1. Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them
who were given authority to judge.

2. I also
saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because
of their testimony about Jesus and because of
God's word, who had not worshiped the beast or
his image, and who had not accepted the mark on
their foreheads or their hands.

Group 1 are the Church Age saints that were
resurrected/raptured before the tribulation period
wrath judgements. Some (not all) are selected for
special service to and with Jesus in the Millinnial
Kingdom of Christ Jesus.

Group 2 are the Tribulation Period Wrath Judgement
saints who are resurrected at the end of the
Tribulation PEriod Wrath Judgement.

Both are resurrected/raptured on the same 7-year
DAY OF THE LORD. Both groups are part of the
FIRST resurrection and the second death shall have
no power over them.

Praise Jesus.

P.S. you were right, this multiple resurrection
event (AKA: the first resurrection) is
THE MAIN FOCUS OF THE CHURCH. Amen!

 

John himself makes it painfully clear and simple as HE summarizes the resurrection event he has just described -- "THIS is THE FIRST resurrection" --

Impossible to miss.

It is ALL the righteous "Blessed and Holy is the one who takes part in the FIRST resurrection". Looking into the future there are only TWO resurrection events for humanity according to John. One starts the 1000 years (yes the real 1000 years) and one ends it.

Holy and Blesses is the one that take part" in this FIRST resurrection.

Key Points:

Rev 19 and 20 are one story – about the return of Christ “I will come again and receive you unto Myself”.

This is all future to John’s day. “They will be priests”, “They will reign”, “And then I saw – they came to life”

#1. Souls who had been beheaded for their testimony.
#2. Souls who died for the Word of God
#3. Those who had not worship the beast or his image
#4. Those who had not received the mark of the beast
#5. “Then I saw…they came to life” A future event regarding these souls. Future to John’s day
1 Peter 3:20 “Eight souls entered into the ark” same word as “soul’ used in Rev 20:4 – meaning “person”.

#6. “The Rest of the dead” – all those who do not come to life at this 2nd coming event. Did not “come to life” until the 1000 years are completed.
(Note – if “come to life” means – “be saved” then the rest of the dead get saved after the 1000 years. Universal salvation is not the point as we see from the rest of the chapter)

#7. “This is the first resurrection”
(This is the first resurrection that John sees in the future. The church is focused entirely on that resurrection according to 1Thess 4: 13-18 and 1Peter 1: 21, Romans 8:17-23, Phil 3 end) …

#8. The resurrection of vs 4 where the souls of the righteous “came to Life” (as opposed to being alive while dead) – is the event that starts the 1000 year clock ticking.

(This focus of the NT church – the resurrection of the righteous, is also described by Paul in 1Thess 4. These in Rev 20 are the righteous and is also clear that the “second death” has no power over those raised in this resurrection before the 1000 years.)

But there is another resurrection (a second resurrection) for the text says The Rest of the dead did not “Come To LIFE” until the 1000 years were completed.

If the "rest of the dead" included a bunch of other saints - then they would ALL be subject to the 2nd death.
</font>[/QUOTE]The bottom line is that the FIRST resurrection is the ONE resurrection of the righteous that we see in 1Thess 4. It is the ONE that all Christians long for "we groan in longing for it" Romans 8.

Looking forward to that singular event - the resurrection of the saints - Paul says to "comfort one another with these words" 1Thess4.

John looks into the future and sees that ONE Singular event - calling it the FIRST resurrection.

Ed - your view continually needs John to see OTHER resurrections in his future BEFORE the FIRST resurrection. And that is the key that your view is not correct.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I point to the resurrection of all the saints future to John's day as a "Singular event" - an event that Christ points to in John 11 for Lazarus when speaking with Mary, the singular future event that Paul references for ALL the saints in 1Thess 4, the singular future event for ALL the saints that Paul references in 1Cor 15, the singular future event that Christ references for ALL the saints in John 5, the Singular event that Peter says "we are to fix our hope COMPLETELY" upon.

But Ed says --

Classic red herring to point to PAST resurrections of individuals "as if" this the context of all these FORWARD looking NT statements about a FUTURE resurrection.

Why would you even bring them in? Did you find them describing the great resurrection of ALL saints to that point in time - AS we see being described at the second coming?

Why do you count 5 resurrections "as if" you have John looking into the future and saying that "five global resurrection events will happen to mankind where ALL the saints that have died to that point in time will be raised" -

There is only "Two" and John hits the nail on the head in Rev 19 and 20.

Rev 19 the second coming of Christ.

Rev 20 the TWO resurrections (count them - just two) awaiting all mankind. The "Blessed and Holy" ones take part in thte "First resurrection" and the "REST of the DEAD" (and that includes all - none missing) take part in the second resurrection.

The second death ONLY has power over those who are NOT in the first resurrection.

And you want that list to "include some of the saints"???

You need to take another look at that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I know it doesn't prove anything.
But there is nothing about the definition
of FIRST that makes it uniquely singular.

I went to College, but first i went to
a common school.
Did i only do ONE GRADE in common school?
No, i did 12.
Likewise, you are saying that
by the definition of FIRST as used in
Revelation 20:5. There is nothing about
the definition of FIRST that says "FIRST AND ONLY".

I can show through other scripture that at least there
are two general resurrections: one before the
tribulation period one after.

Fact: Nothing about "first" in Revelation 20:5
(neither the English nor the Greek) precludes
multiple resurrections.

Your opinion: There is one FIRST resurrection.
My opinion: There are at least two resurrections
in the FIRST Resurrection, the resurreciton of the Just.

Due to the doctrine of Soul Competency, your
opinion is as good as my opinion, and (of course)
vica versa, my opinion is as good as yours.

Did you bother to read my nice essay where
i mention that God is such a Cool Diety that
His nature is to resurrect? What was your opinion
of that?

 

Open letter to BobRyan:

Instead of your fatalistic dising of my
my essay, recommend you write your own
evangelistic message for this board.
Thank you for your kind consideration.

BobRyan: "Classic red herring to point to PAST resurrections of individuals "as if" this the context of all these FORWARD looking NT statements about a FUTURE resurrection.

Why would you even bring them in?"

It is an evangelistic message trying to convince people
to trust in the Lord Jesus for their Salvation so
they can get into the FIRST GROUP TO LEAVE THIS
WORLD.

One nice think about your "red herring" charge, yes,
i was fishing

 

John sees into the future - and sees the first resurrection event for all mankind. This "first resurrection" is that of the "blessed and holy" ones - those over whom the 2nd death has no power.

The Rev 19 second coming and associated Rev 20 "First Resurrection" is the singular event to which Peter points saying that we should "fix our hope COMPLETELY on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ".

Looking forward in history John sees two general resurrections - the one he calls the "First resurrection" is the one that starts the 1000 years. Over these - the 2nd death has no power.

He also tells us what happens to "The Rest of the dead". He says "they do not come to life until AFTER the 1000 years are complete".

This is all obvious and clear.

What is also instructive is that this singular event to which Peter points us - and to which Paul appeal in saying that we "groan within ourselves ..." saying that all creation groans with us longing for this singular event to take place - the redemption of the body -- is the focus of Peter, of Paul and of John in the NT.

They are all pointing to it - so why deny it?

It was THE focus of the NT church.

In addition - there is no such thing as a general resurrection event starting the tribulation period. You will not find it in Revelation - or anywhere else in scripture. How much more "obvious" then John's telling us that the one that starts the 1000 years is in fact "The First Resurrection" - the first general resurrection that is - he sees as he looks into the future. It is the same thing that Paul sees in 1Thess 4 and 1Cor 15. They are all pointing to the same - "main event" the focus for the church.

Impossible to miss.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.
These two events mark the tribulation period
wrath judgements like two book ends.
Both take place the same 7-year Day of the Lord.

1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)

4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)

5R. Tribulation period begins (2 Thess 2:1-3)
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins (Revelation 20:1-5)

6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)

7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)

9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.

11R. Time of joy.
11SC. Time of sorrow.

 

Ed - good post - but I'm sure our post-trib "friends" will have something to say.

Keep up the good work!