Trib begins

Indeed - 1Thess 4 is a great example of the resurrection of the righteous - the first general resurrection in the future of the NT saints - the First one described by John in Rev 19 and 20 at the return of Christ - the one John tells us plainly "is the FIRST" resurrection of the "blessed and holy ones" over whom the second death has no power.

And then he shows how all encompassing this FIRST general resurrection is by saying "the REST of the dead did not come to life until AFTER the 1000 years are completed".

It is very clear and obvious. The entire NT church was to focus on the FIRST resurrection as their hope - not the second general resurrection - which happens after the 1000 years and is comprised of the "REST of the dead" - those not raised in the FIRST resurrection of Rev 20.

In Christ,

Bob

 

That can not be used as an excuse for abandoning the principles of exegesis. Clear substantiated Biblical support for a given interpretation and in this case principle for interpreting numbered timelines - must be shown from scripture if one is to apply sound principles of exegesis.

The point remains.

I too am off to work - but will be back later to see if you have found numbered timelines in the Bible that work with undefined gaps of time inserted.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Offhand i don't even remember
there being any other timelines mentioned
in the Bible. I'm sure there are some there
elese you wouldn't use a plural
"numbered timelines". Thank you.

 

I wrote this essay earlier in my life:


The New Testament Mysteries point to
the veracity of the pretrib rapture position.

1. Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven

Matthew 12:10-11 (nKJV):
10. And the disciples came and said to Him,
"Why do you speak to them in parables?"
11. He answered and said to them, "Because it
has been given to you to know THE MYSTERIES
OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but to them it has
not been given.

The parables of the Kingdom of Heaven are
given in Matthew 13:3-50 and in Mark 4:26-29

I believe the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven
describe the Church Age. The Church Age
goes from Pentacost to Rapture/resurrection/transformation.
During that age the Holy Spirit moves among
humans convicting of sin, and calling humans
to salvation through Jesus, the Christ.
This period in HIS-story can also be called
"the age of the gentiles".

2. Mystery of Israel's blindness in the Church Age

Romans 11:25-26a (nKJV):
For I do not desire, brethren, that you
should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you
should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness
in part has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26. And so all Israel will be saved,

I've had several interesting discussions
with Messianic Jews. They are thrilled at the
prospects that when the last possible gentile
(Hebrew: "goy") comes to accept Jesus, the Messiah,
as their personal savior -- then will Jesus
resurrect/rapture/transform the saved to that time.
Then will come the Tribulation, with the purpose
of Jesus finally winning the Jews unto Himself.


3. Mystery of the Rapture

1 Chrinthians 15:51a (NIV):
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,
but we will all be changed -- ...

1 Thessalonians 4:14,16

Titus 2:13 (nKJV):
looking for the blessed hope and
glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jeus
Christ

Of course, such a rapture must be pretrib
when 100s of millions of saints are still alive,
for after the tribulation there will only be a few
handfuls of living saints.


4. Mystery of His Will

Ephesians 1:9-12 (NIV)
And he made known to us the mystery of his will according
to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times will have
reached their fulfillment -- to bring all things
in heaven and on earth together under one head,
even Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having
been predestined according to the plan of him who
works out everything in conformity with
the purpose of his will,
12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in
Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

May God's will be done!

From Eternity past God has intended
to bring all things together in Christ.

This joining inclues the gentile church and
the race of Yisrael. At the pretribulation
rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.


5. Mystery of Christ:
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel

ephesians 3:2-12 (NIV):

2 Surely you have heard about the administration
of God's grace that was given to me for you,
3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation,
as I have already written briefly.
4 In reading this, then, you will be able
to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which was not made known to men in other generations
as it has now been revealed by the Spirit
to God's holy apostles and prophets.
6 This mystery is that through the gospel
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
members together of one body, and sharers
together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
7 I became a servant of this gospel by the
gift of God's grace given me through the working
of his power.
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's
people, this grace was given me: to preach to
the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration
of this mystery, which for ages past was
kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church,
the manifold wisdom of God should be made
known to the rulers and authorities in
the heavenly realms,
11 according to his eternal purpose
which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 In him and through faith in him
we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

This is interesting because both verse 5 and 9
define "mystery".

The gentile church and the race of Yisrael
are joint heirs of God's promise to Abraham.
At the pretribulation rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then He uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.


6. Mystery of Church the Bride of Christ

Ephesians 4:30b-33 (NIV):

for we are members of his body.
31 "For this reason a man will leave his father
and mother and be united to his wife,
and the two will become one flesh."
32 This is a profound mystery--but I
am talking about Christ and the church.
33 However, each one of you also must
love his wife as he loves himself,
and the wife must respect her husband

Revelation 19: (NIV):

Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear."
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

Does Jesus take his Bride out of the world
before the "wedding of the Lamb" (pretrib)
or after the "wedding of the Lamb" (postrib)?


7. Mystery of the Indwelling Christ in Believers

John 15:4 (NIV)
Remain in me, and I will remain in you.
No branch can bear fruit by itself;
it must remain in the vine.
Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Galations 2:20 (NIV)
I have been crucified with Christ and I no
longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live
by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
and gave himself for me.

Philippians 1:21 (NIV)
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Colossians 1:25-26 (NIV)
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages
and generations, but is now disclosed
to the saints.
27 To them God has chosen to make known
among the Gentiles the glorious
riches of this mystery, which is
Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Woah! Christianity has the other mystery religions
beatten hands down! Christ who is God dwells
within each saint!

What glory is there in the Pretribulation Rapture?
ALL GLORY!

What glory is there in dragging into the Tribulation?


8. Mystery of God, Even Christ

Colossians 2:2b (nKJV):
attaining to all riches
of the full assurance of understanding, to the
knowledge of the mystery of God, both of
the Father and of Christ,

1 Chrinthians 2:7 (nKJV):
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,
the hidden wisdom which God ordained
before the ages for our glory.

Interesting, "before the ages". Well, then if
this wisdom of God was before the ages, it is
certainly before the Church Age.
And the infinite knowledge of God is incarnate
in Christ. And the infinite wisdome of God
which was incarnate in Christ is "for our glory".

How is it for our glory, we the saints of the Living
God, if have to traspe through the Tribulation
as some nay-sayers promote?


9. Mystery of Inquity/Lawlessness

This mystery deals with Satan's ongoing
master plan to bring forth the Antichrist
in the End Times, yet the outcome is clear.
Will Jesus let His Church be around when
the Antichrist is punished on the earth?

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8a (nKJV):
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at
work; only He who now restrains will do so
until He is taken out of the way.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, ... "

Interesting, this mystery is explained in the
pretribulation rapture book of the Bible:
2 Thessalonians. We repeat the timeline shown
in 2 Thessalonains that is clearly specified there:

1. The Church Age (with it's tribulation)
2. Day of Christ:
-2a. falling away; our gathering together to Him;
--removal of the restrainer
-2b. the revelation of the man of sin
-2c. the period of deception; the Tribulation
-2d. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
-2e. the destruction of the man of sin

2 Thessalonians 3:2 (nKJV):
But the Lord is faithful, who will establish
you and guard you from the evil one.

And this is all summed up in one word:

'\o/' Maranatha! '\o/'


10. Mystery of Godliness

1 Timothy 3:16 (nKJV):
And without controversy great
is the mystery of Godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

And that is just what God had done up
to the time of the writing.
Later He will:

Rapture the Church, the Bride of Christ
Marry the Church in Heaven (Tribulation on earth)
Return to earth at the Second Advent
Destroy the Antichrist and bind Satan
Rule the earth on the Throne of David.


11. Mystery of the Seven Stars/Candlesticks

Revelation 1:20 (nKJV):
The mystery of the seven stars which you
saw in My right hand, and the seven golden
lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of
the seven churches, and the seven lampstands
which you saw are the seven churches.

Oh yes, Sweet Jesus! The 7-stars,
the 7-golden lampstands -- the Church age
in double completeness.
And when the church on earth is complete,
the Christ, Jesus, will rapture the church.
And the wedding supper of the Lamb will
take place in heaven as the Tribulation
takes place on earth.


12. Mystery, Babylon the Great:
This mystery forcasts the final
world apostate church of
the Tribulation after the Rapture.

Revelation 17:5 (nKJV), emphasis from the source:

And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


13. Mystery of God

This mystery announces the conclusion of God's
program to consummate history during the
the last days of the voice of the seventh angel".

All the mystery prophecies concerning the
Kingdom of Christ will be fulfilled,
relevant to Israel
and the world leading to the reign of the Messiah.

Revelation 10:7 (nKJV):
but in the days of the sounding of the seventh
angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery
of God would be finished, as He declared
to His servants the prophets.

 

Well - maybe some hints then.

The 70 years of Jeremiah that Daniel begins chapter 9 with.

The 40 years of Genesis 15.

We also have the historic numbered time lines of Genesis 5 and Genesis 11.

None of these examples can work with "gaps of undefined time inserted into them".

I fail to see how you can even begin the reading of scripture without running into numbered timeline after numbered timeline.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The Rapture

John 14 - Christ takes all the risen and raptured saints to heaven - to be "with Christ".
1Thess 4 -- caught up in the air -- to "Be With Christ".


Includes the Resurrection - the First Resurrection

Rev 20 - the "First Resurrection" - that of the Holy and Blessed.
1Thess 4 - the singular event focused on - the general resurrection - that of the saints - the "dead in Christ" those who have "fallen asleep"
1Cor 15 - the redemption of the Body - "we shall ALL be changed" in a moment at that singular event
Romans 8 - the groaning longing waited singular event - the redemption of the body
John 5 - the first of two resurrections - one of the just and one of the unjust

In Christ,

Bob

 

Nothing is said in scripture about "how many saints" are still living at the time of the rapture.

But then of course - nothing is said in scripture about numbered timelines with undefined gaps of time inserted into their midst.

So... no change there.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Thank you Cecil, my memory is about shot.

 

Thank you, Cecil
My memory is shot.

Sorry, i missed the next two posts on
the current page so what i was talking
about is probably obscure

 

Well - maybe some hints then.

The 70 years of Jeremiah that Daniel begins chapter 9 with.

The 400 years (not 40 years - my bad) of Genesis 15.

We also have the historic numbered time lines of Genesis 5 and Genesis 11.

None of these examples can work with "gaps of undefined time inserted into them".

I fail to see how you can even begin the reading of scripture without running into numbered timeline after numbered timeline.

In Christ,

Bob

 

You claim that the "challenge" to SHOW clear examples of numbered timelines having undefined gaps of time inserted - (to exegetically support your doing the same thing in Daniel 9) is met by your speculative statement that the 69th week ends with the Baptism of Christ and clearly at Christ's baptism - the Jewish time is up. (Notice that in Mark 1 just after His baptism - Christ Himself declares that the prophetic time specified has been fulfilled)

But in fact as Hebrews 10 states - Christ put a stop to sacrifices and offerings at His death - just as we see happening in the MIDDLE of the 70th week of Daniel - which is 3.5 years AFTER the annointing - 3.5 years AFTER the Baptism of the Messiah we see the Heb 10 event where He puts a stop to sacrifices and offerings.

Not surprisingly - the numbered timeline IS one contiguous reliable predictable timeline. If you know the start you know the exact date of the end Of a numbered timeline. (Obviously).

Since the time for Israel is NOT up after the cross Christ directs the disciples to Go to Jerusalem and Israel first. It is only after the stoning of Stephen a few years AFTER the ascension of Christ that we see the work going to the Gentiles.

The single contiguous nature of numbered timelines is what it is - no matter how desperately your tradition may "need" to find an exception and cling to it as if that made sense.

In Christ,

Bob

 

This seems like the
second time you have said this. It is TWO TIMES more than than I have said it. You are
mixing your belief up with what you think
i believe.

I'm an englineer by training and by job
as well as by personal preference. I'm only
interested in what works. The start of
the 70 weeks is known within a 20 year period.
The end , the baptism of Jesus (which BobRyan
brought to the table, not Ed). is only known
within about a 4 year span. The
death of Jesus ending the sacrifice - well
the death of Jesus is only known within
a 4-year period and the actual sacrifices
didn't end until 70AD.

Here is a side discussion:
there are prophecies of 1260 days
specifically that the gentiles would
overun Jerusalem for 1260 days
(Rev 11, early) verse.
Some one noted that might be 1260 years
(instead of 3½-years). Israel got their
physical state in 1948. 1948 minus
1260 equals 678. The Dome of the Rock
was building in 678. Because back then it
took some 50 years to raise enough money
and build a building that would last over
1,000 years, most any year in there will
work for the "dedication" of the building.
Voila! The Dome of the Rock was dedicated
in 678AD. So the filling of the timeline
was totally missapplied.

There are error factors in knowing
the end of the exile and the timing
of events in the life of Jesus in excess
of the 7-year-long 70th week.

BTW, i never said to end any part of any
timeline with the baptism of Jesus.
That was brought to the table by BobRyan.

Have a nice day in the Lord.

 

(What kind of engineer?)

Well take a closer look at Heb 10 - to see "God's view" of when Christ put a stop to sacrifices and offerings "for all time" when He offerred Himself up "Once for ALL".

Or did you want to claim that this is only something Romans could do?

The point being - Christ declared at His baptism (in Mark 1) that the prophetic timeline pointing to that event "had been fulfilled".

God declares that Christ at His death put a stop to sacrifices and offerings (in Heb 10) though some today only recognize the Roman authorities on that point.

But in God's Words found in the NT - the OT prophecy finds fulfillment.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Indeed - in Rev 11 it is 42 months (1260 days with a day for a yeaer) and also called 1260 days (with a day for a year) in that same chapter. A time when the people of God are persecuted. A time when the two witnesses of God (the OT and the NT) witness to the world in sackloth - under great distress and persecution.

In Daniel 7 it is 3.5 "times" which is in fact 42 months - 1260 days where each day stands for a year. A time of persecution of the church according to Daniel that follows the rise of the Roman empire.

In Rev 12 it is mentioned again - only as 3.5 times (as we saw it mentioned in Daniel 7). A 1260 year period following the resurrection of Christ (And so the rise of the Roman empire) in which the church is persecuted - and flees to the wilderness.

In Rev 13 it is mentioned again as a 42 month period during which the beast that rises out of the sea persecutes the Church of God.
A time AFTER the resurrection of Christ but BEFORE the rise of the lamb like beast of Rev 13.

Errr ... ummm ... yeahhh! That would be the wrong interpretation of the 1260 years. No wonder it does not work.

Not really.

Christ Himself tells us that the timeline pointing to the coming of the Messiah - the annointed one is "fulfilled" at His Baptism when by the Holy Spirit He is annointed to begin His ministry as the Messiah. In Mark 1 He tells us "The Time IS fulfilled". No need to speculate on that point. Daniel 9 says that from the issuing of the decree to rebuild "Until Messiah the Prince" is 69 weeks (483 years).

That is 27 AD and 483 years prior to that is 456 BC the year the 3-fold decree of Artaxerxes for the restoration and building of Jerusalem went into effect, in the autumn of 457 B.C Ezra 6:14 and Ezra 7:8-9

That means that the 69th week - that Daniel shows as marking the coming of the Messiah ("Until Messiah the Prince" Dan 9:25 - is complete and the 70th week is then starting in 27 AD.

3.5 years into that 70th week God said that Christ "put a stop to sacrifices and offerings" because by His death - He satisfied that Which God had instituted - "ONCE for ALL time". (See Heb 10)

So in both cases it is God showing the fulfillment - not man slicing up a timeline and scattering it all through history.

In Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan says: "That is 27 AD and 483 years prior to
that is 456 BC the year the 3-fold decree of
Artaxerxes for the restoration and building
of Jerusalem went into effect, ... "

But this is the most correct statement one
can really say:

That is 27AD±2 and 483 years prior to
that is 456BC±10 the year the 3-fold decree of
Artaxerxes for the restoration and building
of Jerusalem went into effect,

Note that 490 years also can fit in with
456BC±10 and 27AD±2.

 

Ed, my heart goes out to you. I know you will miss your wife until that day you are reunited.
I am 58 years old, married for 40 of those years, raised 9 children, and at one time or another of their life been a dad to 53 foster children. I have become acquainted with sorrow and grief. It is during the times of tragedy that our Father has proven Himself “our exceedingly great reward”.
My 3 ½ year old grandaughter died 3 years ago from the effects of aplastic anemia. She spent 7 weeks in the pediatric ICU in a drug induced coma. When God did not answer our prayers for healing and she died it tried my trust to the point until I was completely broken. He reached way down to pick me up. It is these things that make us or break us. Doctrines are just that until they are tried in the fire of affliction, they point us to Life, and it is Jesus who is that Life
I did not say this for sympathy, just as I know you didn’t. I said it to make a point even though this is probably not the forum for it. But, Ray said something to me in a past post that I wanted to go over, because I know I have a short time to stay her much of what I say seem rambling at best:

Me: 'The closer I get to Him the more I intuitively know about His Kingdom. It is then the Scriptures begin to validate whether or not what I hear in my conscience is from me or Him. When those two witnesses agree then I know it is the Holy One.'
Ray: The Word of God is the final document of truth, because it comes from the Godhead. The Holy Spirit within you [I John 2:27] will guide you into all truth, if you study and know your Bible.'
Me: 'Many of the doctrines I held dearly have fallen by the wayside in that Light. Does that make any sense?'
Ray: It makes some sense to me, but the Bible, God's Word is the final authority. Sometimes we can believe certain things are right, while in fact, they can be incorrect.

The Scriptures are not the Word of God, Jesus is the Word of God, and nowhere do I find a place where they declare it otherwise. Psa. 51 was words uttered under the power of the Spirit, but they became personal and alive when He touched me and cleansed me from sin. Isa. 53:4 became alive when He came on the scene when I went through suffering. 1 Jn. 2:27 says nothing about Bible study, but says much about abiding in Him. The Bible is not the final authority, Hebrews says that Jesus is. He is every thing God is, wrapped in human flesh and when He left He said the He would send the Holy Spirit to replace Him. The Scriptures point me to Him, but He is the One that gives me life and wisdom and companionship. Do not misinterpret my meaning here, the Scriptures are the most valuable words the world has ever known, but, I would rather have Jesus and one page of the Bible than a library of Scriptures about Him. That is where the Jews screwed up, they knew the Scriptures, but they missed Life. The Scriptures give us true knowledge, Jesus gives true Life.

I get to come to the board about 2 times a week and it takes me so much time to catch up with the things going on that I’m still a week behind. I heartily agree with Bob though, being the Pan millenialist, (according to Jude) that I am.
But one question: Mat. 24:3 and what {will be} the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?
30. "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31. "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

God Bless

 

Number one - Daniel says that from the time of the decree UNTIL the point of the (annointed one) Messiah is 483 years - (69 weeks).

Christ FIRST says "The time has been fulfilled" in Mark 1 immediately after His baptism where He IS annointed by the Holy Spirit for His 3.5 year ministry.

The year of Artexerxes decree in Ezra 6 and 7 is in fact - known. So that is not the hard part.

The amazing thing is that Daniel ALSO says that in the MIDST of that week He causes sacrifices and offerings to cease. God says in Heb 10 that a the cross (3.5 years after the resurrection) Christ really DID put an end to "Sacrifices and offerings" "once for all".

Even your own calculation above consumes all the 490 years by moving dates around. And the good news (at least) is that it would then be a timeline like every other numbered timeline in scripture (and history) -- contiguous.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Fron Matt 25:30 "every tribe shall morn" when Jesus
comes. But i'll not morn if Jesus comes, for
Jesus will come to get me. They that morn are
those with no home. They will morn at the
end of the 7-year-Day of the Lord; We shall
rejoice when Jesus comes to get us at the
beginning of the 7-year-Day of the Lord --
the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.

BobRyan, I was glad to be of assistance
proving to you your preconsecptions of
hopelessness were correct.
I hope for a pretribulation rapture instead
of having to die, which is a bummer.
But it is up to the Lord who will do His plan
without respect to my wishes or to yours.

 

True enough. Fortunately you are not "your own tribe". The Bible remains correct - "EVERY tribe will morn".

There are those today who incorrectly believe no saints will be left on earth - but the 144,000 during the 7 last plagues. However we can ALL agree that THEY will not morn when they see Christ appearing as described in Rev 19.

So simply saying that you hope not to morn when Christ "comes again" (as He promised in Rev 14) - is not making your point -- unless you think all of God's people will morn at that time.

There is no such thing as a 7-year-day of the Lord.

Nor is there a pretribulation rapture because the 1Thess 4 resurrection of the saints - of the righteous - of the "blessed and holy ones" - is described by John in the FIRST general resurrection for mankind - in Rev 20.

So it is a post-tribulation rapture.

Indeed it is not a case of wishing - but of sound Bible exegesis and faith.

We have already seen that slicing up timelines and scattering them all through history does not work. No numbered timeline in the Bible will support that.

You can be raptured at the end of the tribulation without dying - as we see in 1Thess 4 regarding the rapture at the first resurrection - the ONE general resurrection of the saints - of the dead in Christ.

In Christ,

Bob