stigmata, Marian apparitions, etc.

Just poking my head in to point out that this argument is a logical fallacy. Argument from Ignorance. AFI logical fallacies assume that since something has not been proven false, it is therefore true. Think of it this way: "lack of proof is not proof".

jason

 

That is precisely why baptism does not regenerate, I had some water sprinkled on me as an infant and yet regeneration did not happen and so I continued in the lusts of the flesh and sins and wickedness. Yes, there were many in the early centuries of Christianity that believed in baptismal regeneration, but the doctrine is shown to be false by the fact that it doesn't work

Wrong again. We are talking about two different things here. Regeneration has to do with the renewing of mankind's Edenic covenant with God through the work of Jesus the Christ. It is a corporate renewal which reversed in all mankind the separation done by Adam.

In Romans 5: 12 we see that Adam took the whole human race with him into that state which the Bible calls "death". Death is separation from God. As such, all mankind was separated from God in Adam.

In Christ, all mankind is returned to the father and reunited to Him. That is corporate. But EACH INDIVIDUAL must not only PERSONALLY be made partakers of this regeneration through the covenant of baptism, but each individual then is responsible for making PERSONAL that which is CORPORATE. That personalizing of the corporate regeneration is called "repentance" or "conversion".

I was redeemed into the corporate body of Christ in 1949 at my baptism. But I did not truly become "converted" to faith in Jesus Christ until 1971 when I PERSONALLY REPENTED of my sins and turned to Him.

This is very similar to the dichotomy between salvation and eternal life. One is part of the other, but they are not related the way youse Evangelicals mix them together. You make them to be equal to each other and they are not.

Brother Ed

 

DHK -

In order to see the resurrection in toto, it is necessary to study the entirity of the Bible, not just certain pet Scriptures which seem to prove your fallacious "rapture" theory.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

This is the "first resurrection". WHO are "the dead"? They are all who have eyes are shut by sin and who have their ears plugged by unbelief. In other words, the WHOLE HUMAN RACE. That is the state of mankind before salvation. We are "dead" in Adam because we are separated from God. Even you admitted as much, DHK, that "death" means separation from God.

They that hear shall live. This began when Christ went into Paradise and preached unto the spirits captive there. And what did He preach? He preached the Good News that He had triumphed over death and was now on His way to the temple in Heaven to offer YOM KIPPUR for the people of God, the covenant nation of believers, and that upon completion of this, these righteous would see God.

This was the beginning of the "hearing of the voice of the Son of Man" in which all who hear are raised from death to life.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

THIS is a SEPARATE EVENT. It is the Resurrection of the Last Day, the second resurrection in which it says that ALL that are in the graves shall come forth. ALL. That means everyone who has ever lived and died. This means that BODIES shall come forth to be reintegrated with their souls and judged. This is not said of the first resurrection in verse 25. That is the beginning of the resurrection, which is going on to this day, for everyone who is baptized is baptized into His death, burial, and RESURRECTION, and then -- all those who indeed do "hear" (for there are many baptized who never do hear) the voice of the Son of God, are full participants in this resurrection.

Secondly, you have to go back to the Garden and ask yourself, "WHAT is it that God's salvation plan is to accomplish". If you look at what was lost in the Garden i.e., the presence of God, unity and fellowship with Him, then you must admit that the purpose of Christ's death was to reunite the world to God. Scripture says this also:

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Adam separated the world from God. Jesus the Christ reconciled the world to God.

Now if this is indeed what Christ did, then the very first people to recieve the benefits of this must be those who were waiting in Paradise. Could Christ have possibly finished His work, making YOM KIPPUR in Heaven (Heb. 9 - 10) and they NOT be the first to recieve these great benefits and go to be with the Father? I don't think so.

Does Scripture EXPLICITLY teach this? Of course not, no more than it explicitly says "God exists in a Godhead consisting of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit." In fact, Scripture can be made to say just the opposite, which is what that now famous sola scripturalist -- heresiarch Bishop Arias -- did at the Council of Nicea.

Your eschatology has the work of Christ yet unfinished until He returns at the "rapture". This leaves all of us as not partaking in the resurrection.

BTW -- just occurred to me. YOU and I, when we were baptized, partook of the resurrection in our souls, for we became members of Christ, truly alive in Him, partakers of the divine nature, and united to Him by faith.

Now tell me.....if we are thus partakers, are we not really and truly "alive in Christ"? And if we are alive and united to God in Christ, then how do you insist that we are still dead (separated from Christ). You see, DHK, you have already partaken of that which you do not even believe in.

Brother Ed

 

Ed, I don't know where you get your theology from, but it is very strange indeed. In the Bible a resurrection, any resurrection, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, refers to a bodily resurrection.

Resurrection. The Old Testament. In the Old Testament, the idea of bodily resurrection evolves from a vague concept into a developed expectation.

Job's despairing vacillation over death and decay is answered by the radiant expectation of preservation: "For I know my Redeemer lives, and that at the last he will stand upon the earth; and after my skin has been thus destroyed, then in my flesh I shall see God" (Job 19:25–26 nrsv; cf also Ps. 16:10; Isa. 26:19).

Isaiah 26:10 says, "If favor is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness they deal perversely" (nrsv). Yet God's justice is revealed in the afterlife, as indicated in verse 19: "Your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy!" But the wicked have a different end: "The Lord is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins; the earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer" (v. 21).

Daniel 12:2–3: "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever." Unlike the "resurrections" of 1 Kings 17:17–24, 2 Kings 4:31–37, and 2 Kings 13:20–21, which are resuscitations to the conditions of earthly life, Daniel 12:2–3 apportions a future allotment by the use of the future tense (both in the Hebrew text and LXX).
Elwell, Walter A., Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology, (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House) 1998, c1996.

Read 1 Corinthians 15. The resurrection of Jesus Christ, a bodily resurrection, is the foundation, the cornerstone of our very faith. If the Christ be not raised (bodily) then our faith is in vain. We have nothing to live for. To deny the resurrection is one of the foundational truths if not the most foundational truth of the Bible. Yet this is precisely what you are doing, when you say that the first resurrection is just an allegorical event when no body was resurrected. You claim that there were souls that were raised from the dead, from the earth, in 70 A.D., and yet without bodies. This is one of the greatest heresies Christianity has known.
DHK

 

17 Therefore if anyone is (1) in Christ, he is (2) a new creature; (3) the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. - 2 Corinthians 5:17 NASB

If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

 

DualHunter,

This happens at Baptism, when original sin is washed away, and we become the children of God.

God bless,

Grant

 

Grant, with all do respect, for millions of people that did not happen at Baptism. Believe me when I say that I was not made clean when I was Baptized, my life was proof of that. Yes, I still sin but I am aware of my sin now and wish to over come my weaknesses and serve God. Nothing changed in me as the result of the water being poured over my head, no matter how well intended it was.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Carson, You wrote:
"""I don't apply the same hermeneutic that you do, and Protestantism itself is divided on this issue itself because of the various hermeneutics applied. You approach the text with a Fundamentalist interpretive approach, and I disagree with your approach. Your hermeneutic seems to be devoid of any theological considerations - simply a blind following of the text. What are Paul's foundations? I see both cultural and theological foundations at work, and this is key when reconstructing the Church today according to the NT model (the object of Fundamentalist congregations)."""

Thats some pretty fancy writing there my friend. You sound like a debater who has lost the argument but is gonna try to wow the judges with the manor in which something is said rather then the context of what is said.

Carson, you snuck in that creative writing above that I was blindly following the text. Well, I am not sure if I am following the text for what it says how I can be doing it blindly. Seems to me if I were blinded I would be avoiding the text, umm kind of like what you are doing. You see I showed you that this idea of a woman's role started in the Garden and Paul calls it basically "law" i.e. the natural order of things. God gives us a clear blueprint in this situation and you want to try and build a different building instead of the one the blueprints are for.

Anyhow, you have never shown, via scripture, that the gathering of men and women you attended was not in violation of scripture by having a woman speaking and performing a miracle. Even if a man was the official presider of the assembly a woman was still "speaking" as one in authority and taeching men and even in your eyes performing a miracle.

I accept your apology for your comments above

Take care brother,
Your friend in Christ,
Brian

 

Brigguy,

No one ever claimed that Baptism is a once-for-all salvation. It is a Christian initiation, when all of our original sin is wiped clean. We are a new creature, a new child of God, CAPABLE of walking in his path and living in the gift of faith. The fact that it took you a while to accept the promises made for you in Baptism is irregardless. You always have been a child of God since your Baptism; you simply had to chose to then accept God as your Father in return.

God bless,

Grant

 

Brian,

John 2:3-5
"When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to Him, "They have no wine." [And] Jesus said to her, "Woman, how does your concern affect Me? My hour has not yet come." His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."

A woman speaks.
A woman asks Jesus to grant a favor.
A miracle is performed.

Yes, it was Jesus who performed the miracle, but at the vocal request of a woman. In the same way, Jesus is the cause of all miracles, not those who perform them.

God bless,

Grant

 

Brigguy,

No one ever claimed that Baptism is a once-for-all salvation. It is a Christian initiation, when all of our original sin is wiped clean. We are a new creature, a new child of God, CAPABLE of walking in his path and living in the gift of faith. The fact that it took you a while to accept the promises made for you in Baptism is irregardless. You always have been a child of God since your Baptism; you simply had to chose to then accept God as your Father in return.

God bless,

Grant</font>[/QUOTE]Briguy and myself were not capable of walking in God's path.

The following applied to me just as it did to Paul:

18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my (34) flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For (35) the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, (36) I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then (37) the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in (38) the inner man,
23 but I see (39) a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the (40) law of my mind and making me a prisoner of (41) the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from (42) the body of this (43) death?
25 (44) Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh (45) the law of sin. - Romans 7:18-25 NASB

I was a slave to sin, completely helpless even though I'd been sprinkled as an infant. When I trust in Christ alone, I was set free.

 

DualHunter,

If you have been baptised, then you cannot say that the fact that you are a child of God and have put your trust in Him is not as a result of that infant Baptism.

Sure, you can say that it didn't, but then again, I can say that it did.

God bless,

Grant

 

In doing so you prove yourself a lier. I was even confirmed in the Catholic church but that didn't make me a new creature any more than having a bit of water sprinkled on my head when I was too young to remember.

 

In doing so you prove yourself a lier. I was even confirmed in the Catholic church but that didn't make me a new creature any more than having a bit of water sprinkled on my head when I was too young to remember.</font>[/QUOTE]DualHunter,

Every Baptist kid I grew up with "got saved" when they were about 12 or 13, because that's when their parents expected them to, and the community expected them to. Did this mean anything? No. They did not live in the faith entrusted to them. Sacraments are gifts from God, but we still have to actively accept that gift and chose to live in it. At your Confirmation, you received the Holy Spirit, whether you chose to let Him be a part of your life or not, He was there.

This does not make me a liar or negate my thesis.

God bless,

Grant

 

Either you're a lier or God is.

18 so that by two unchangeable things in which (37) it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of (38) the hope set before us. - Hebrew 6:18 NASB

17 Therefore if anyone is (1) in Christ, he is (2) a new creature; (3) the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. - 2 Corinthians 5:17 NASB

38 "He who believes in Me, (1) as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of (2) living water.'"
39 But this He spoke (3) of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for (4) the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet (5) glorified. - John 7:38-39 NASB

 

Hi Grant, Hope you are back to full health these days and stay healthy for the holidays

Anyway, you wrote:
""It is a Christian initiation, when all of our original sin is wiped clean.""

If my original sin is ALL gone would I then not qualify for heaven at that point because I would be perfect? Can original sin come back if I have unconfessed sins? It seems to me that salvation should be based on baptism alone if Baptism makes me perfect in the sight of God (i.e. cleansed of original sin). Well, have at those questions for now, I look forward to your reply.

Also, on your example of Mary it really is a different situation. Mary did not address the whole gathering, she told a few people to listen to Jesus. Jesus still gave the command to get the water and HE performed the miracle. Also, she was not an authority or acting as one in authority and was not teaching men.

Also, remember that this "role" issue being discussed is for the NT "church". church meaning assemblies of believers. It is unclear what the spiritual condition of those folks around Mary and Jesus were. Also, the Holy Spirit, who administers gifts unique to the "church" had not come at that time. Thats it for now

Take care,
In Christ our Lord,
Brian

 

Hi, Brian,

Yes that is correct. Well, I wouldn't say you were perfect, but certainly free from original sin.

No not original sin. Actual sin. Sins that we actually commit.

Ron

 

Hey Ron, How have you been? I never noticed you were from Michigan. I live right by Lake M. in WI. I go to the lake everyday for lunch (m-th anyway). Next time I look over the lake you will probably come to mind now that I know you are on the other side of the water.

Anyway, so if I am getting your point here, original sin and/or actual sin can keep me from heaven, right?

Also, my point in using the word perfect was to say that without original sin then I would be returned to the previous state that Adam and Eve had before the fall, in God's eyes anyway. What you are saying is that I return to that point in Baptism but then when I sin I need to be made clean again to qualify for heaven. So it is a continual lifelong sin/wash sin/wash sin/wash. Is that it, said in a barbaric kind of way?

Ron, Have you ever thought it possible that Jesus could wash us with heavenly soap that once he washed us with it that we would be clean in a way that any sin we commit slides off and doesn't stick. On fabric or carpet we would call it "stain guard". With Jesus I guess I would call it "Sin Guard". Once we are sprayed with it, it never wears out. Again my question to you and Grant would be, Why is my example not possible, considering the power of God?

In a great God,
Brian

 

Brian,

The fact of the matter is that we do sin. You do, I do, we all do. Sometimes we sin pretty badly, even after we have Jesus in our lives.

Jesus died for our sins, yes, but that does not mean sin no longer offends God. It's not like God is immune to the sins of His children, and they no longer bother Him. ALL sin is directly opposed to God.

Now, you are right and wrong at the same time. Yes, there is a soap so powerful that it washes away our sins: God's mercy.

However, because sin is still opposed to God, it's impossible for there to be a soap that cleanses us once for all, because that would insinuate that no sin we now commit offends God, which gives us a license to sin without repentance.

The fact of the matter is that we MUST repent of our sins, and when we do that, God washes us clean once again. The soap is powerful enough to wash away even the dirtiest of stains, and it provides us with the strength to not live in that sin anymore. However, we are still creatures with a choice, and, God love us, we will continually fail throughout our lives. That is when God in all His love and mercy says, "Come, child," and he washes us yet again, no matter how undeserving we are.

In Baptism, we are crucified with Christ. The old Adam is washed away, and the new Adam emerges. Yet, even as the new Adam, we are creatures with freedom, and we can chose (always stupidly!) to sin again. BUT, because Christ died for us, his blood can wash away, over and over and over again (His mercy is infinite!) our transgressions as we confess them to him in repentance.

I hope that better explains things, from my perspective.

God bless,

Grant

 

Hello Brian --

You are asking good questions, but laboring under the wrong paradigm, and that is messing up your understanding of the responses we are giving you.

There is a strange understanding of what it means to be "born again" and "a new creature in Christ" in Protestantism. It seems that the understanding is that a new creature cannot sin. In essence, that the person who is a Christian is "born again" fully mature and incapable of messing his/her spiritual diapers, so to speak.

If this were to be so, then by what stretch of the imagination does Jesus promise that when ALL MANKIND is raised on the Last Day, ALL will be judged by their WORKS? (John 5: 29). We see that Jesus says that those who DO GOOD (NOT "believe") shall inherit eternal life. Those who DO EVIL shall inherit wrath.

St. Paul says the same thing in Romans 2: 5 - 10.

The judgement of all mankind is said to be along these parameters. There is no exception made, no set apart class who are distinguished as believers and therefore are said to be exempt from this judgment. Jesus and St. Paul say "ALL" and that is exactly what they mean.

This fits in completely with the way in which a covenant operates. One enters a covenant by making an oath of fidelity to the other. That is what our baptism is, and the reason that it is said to "wash away our sins" is that in making this covenant with God through Christ, we enter into the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (Rom. 6:3). We therefore share in His Blood sacrifice and that precious Blood indeed cleanses us from our sin as we become united to Him in covenant. We are united to Him, therefore, we are taken out of Adam, in whom we have nothing but death and condemnation (Rom. 5:12). This is the new man and new life we have, the life in Christ by virtue of being in a covenantal relationship with Him. We are "made new" because we do indeed have a very real new relationship. No longer are we separated from God by dint of being in Adam, but are now adopted sons/daughters of God and heirs to the family fortune -- the inheritance which is eternal life.

But....just as adultery could break the relationship with my wife, so do certain sins, called "mortal sin" break the covenant unity with Christ that we have.

Brian, always remember that covenants are breakable. The idea of a so called "unconditional covenant" is a Calvinist fantasy that the Anabaptists and Evangelicals have picked up from Calvinism.

Baptism is not magic performed with water. It is the making of covenant with God through Christ which shows the reality of what is happening as we go under the water and emerge again -- we are really and truly being united into His death, burial and resurrection. But this is just the beginning of a journey of growth into full maturity which will take all of our lives and is a battle with the world, the flesh, and the devil.

If believers could not fall away, then St. Paul's warnings to them are silly at best, and irresponsible at worst. The call of John the Beloved in 1 John 2: 9 to repent of our sins and confess them that we might be forgiven is nonsensical also.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed