stigmata, Marian apparitions, etc.

Posted by Ed:

You have a wrong concept here Ed. When Jesus said in John 3:3, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God," He was not speaking of baptism. He was speaking of being born into God's family (John 1:12) by the power of His Holy Spirit, by trusting Christ as Saviour. At that point, when an individual is fully capable of making that decision, and does believe, he is born again and becomes a new creature in Christ (2Cor.5:17). "Old things are passed away, behold all things are become new." Once a person is born into God's family, and is made a new creature in Christ, he is still fully capable of sinning. This why John taught us in 1John1:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
--Every man sins; saved or unsaved. I have been born again, saved, but I am still a sinner, saved by grace. By God's grace, and as God's child, I bring my sin to him on a daily basis. He (vs.9) promises to forgive my sin and cleanse me from all unrighteousness. For me to say that I could ever reach a state of full maturity and be incapable of sinning while still on this earth, as you suggest, is not only unthinkable, but in direct violation to God's Word. It makes Christ a liar, and His Word is not in us, by making such a claim (vs.10). Please do not falsely accuse us of believing such. I know I have eternal life. It was a gift given to me by God. I know my sins are forgiven: past, present and future (as pertaining to salvation). They are under the blood of Christ. John 1:9 speaks of a believer confessing his sins to Christ, in order that he might have fellowship with God restored, not salvation restored.
BTW, I still await your answer on "how is it possible for ‘souls' to be raised from the dead in 70 A.D., in the light of the fact that resurrections always refer to bodily resurrections (unless you are a J.W.)?"
DHK

 

Hi Ed and Grant, Thanks for the well though out and caring responses. You both have good hearts and it shows. I understand what you are saying a little better now. Grant, one thing about what you said. You said that God still sees the sin of the believer and it offends him. Since I have been "saved" (my fundamental term) I have always pictured a veil of Christs blood between me and God, and when God looks at my actions and my life He sees me clean because the blood of his Son washes away anything unclean before it gets to His eyes. Believing that Christ would put his blood between me and God is what motivates me to serve God and to be truely thankful, I guess because I know how much filth Jesus' "blood" is filtering out, everyday. Grant, alot of what you said sounded like what I believe. We both seem grateful for God's mercy

Ed, I have always thought of the verses about confessing in 1 John the way DHK described. I hadn't thought about it seriously from a perspective of regaining salvation each time I confess. I can't help but think if it is what you are saying that it diminishes the role the cross plays in salvation. That ultimate sacrifice seems as though it should be enough to cover my Sins for a million lifetimes. Going back to my veil example, if I am right then my beliefs fit into the scripture you mentioned just fine. I still sin but the blood washes the sin away, therefore I am forever clean and cleared for Heaven in the sight of God. Ed, really believing that is what makes so many "fundys" excited to spread God's word.

Ed, Thanks for your words on the covenant, especially that covenants can always be broken. Once I mentioned to you that I believed the new covenant was between God the father and the "church", with Christ as her head, which in essence made the covenant unbreakable because it was between God and God. Since then I have seen good covenant arguments from you and others and have seen that the New C. may be with Isreal but I can still reap the benefits of it. Either way, thanks and I will continue to explore the issue. I still love the picture of the way I described first, I just can't support it with scripture, only good logical theory.

DHK, Thanks once again for a clear presentaion of our basic beliefs and the scripture that supports them.

In Christ,
Brian

[ November 20, 2002, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

So, you're saved regardless if you have fellowship with Jesus or not? This goes right back to the "easy ticket" that you harassed Brother Ed for talking about. How can you be saved without having fellowship with Jesus? And don't say you didn't say that, because you just did above.

God bless,

Grant

 

Helen,

And if one wanders forever, until death...that person is still saved?

God bless,

Grant

 

Helen,

Then you've done away with free will.

God bless,

Grant

 

DHK,

Then if one has free will, after he has entered into the fold, he can just as well leave at any time he wishes. Saying no man can steal him away is different than him chosing to leave himself.

God bless,

Grant

 

If Christ has given him eternal life, as He said He has, then He would be a liar if the individual leaving the flock were to lose it. Once in the flock (the family of God) you will never be disinherited. You have a new name. You are part of a new family. Eternal means eternal. If eternal stops at any time it becomes temporary, and Christ is a liar. Never perish means never perish. If one loses his salvation he possibly perishes, and Christ becomes a liar. Why are you making a liar out of Christ?
DHK

 

These "you are making a liar out of Christ" accusations are disturbing to me.

To begin with, the best you can say is that a particular belief is merely your interpretation.

No doubt Grant believes as I do that you do not have eternal life until your life on earth is over. It is merely your interpretation that you have eternal life (are saved) when you make your one time expression of faith.

Secondly, you yourself have said that you can not know for sure who is or is not saved. So you don't know who is or is not in the flock.

I don't know when frivilous accusations become false witness, but I for one would not want to find out when I stand in judgement.

Ron

[ November 20, 2002, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

Brian --

Your assumption is correct. The God/God covenant simply cannot be broken. Christ made the covenant not for INDIVIDUAL believers, but for the Church (again, study the typology of covenantalism in the OT). A covenant is a marriage which is indisoluable. (Which makes divorce in our country all the more heinous).

The promises of never leaving nor forsaking have to do with the relationship between Christ and His Bride. That relationship is everlasting.

But....the covenant WE enter into as individuals is not the same as the God/God covenant between the Father and the Son. Nor is it the same as the covenant between the Bride and Christ. WE, as individuals, can and do break the covenant on a regular basis. We call this sin.

When you follow the injunctions of 1 John 1: 9, you are not regaining your salvation. Salvation is that state of having been taken from the separation in Adam which is called "death" in Scripture, to the union with God through Christ which is called "being a new creature in Christ". We are adopted into the family as sons and daughters.

But....and this is where Helen is mixed up....sons and daughters CAN be disinherited from that which is laid up for them. Jesus, as our Elder Brother (remember, in the covenant pictures in the OT, the eldest brother ADMINISTERED the covenant to the siblings) has obtained by His death an inheritance which Adam lost -- eternal life.

As such, we have a foretaste, a downpayment, an EARNEST (Eph. 1: 14) in the Holy Spirit. He is the divine deposit of the fullness which is yet to come. He is the promise that if we remain faithful, we will recieve the inheritance set aside for us.

I think that at this point, the "once saved - always saved" crowd gets nervous because they say that if our receiving eternal life depends upon us, not only is it seen as works, but many of them fear that they could not keep the covenant to the end.

But look!! Look at the riches which God has given us to aid us on the journey Home. We have the blessed Holy Spirit to teach, console, and guide us. We have the Sacraments in which Jesus Himself is very present. We have the Church to guide us into truth and to give us a place where we can encourage one another in fellowship. We have the saints and the Blessed Mother interceeding for us to succeed. We have the testimony of the lives of the saints to be a source of encouragement to us to persevere, even in the face of great persecution.

Ahhhhh, there is SO MUCH that we can draw upon that Christ has give us to aid in our walk.

Brian, when we sin, we do dishonor to God. The union and relationship is strained. Repentance and confession is simply removing those stains from us so that we might sit at the King's Table with clean linen of righteousness upon our souls.

Mortal sin, however, is more than just stain. It is the doing of the same thing the Prodigal did --insulting the Father and LEAVING THE HOUSEHOLD. To sever onesself from the household and unity with God is to place onesself in a "far country" in which the grace of God cannot reach us. We have pushed it away and want nothing to do with it.

And if we die out of God's friendship, out of the household of the great King, then we cannot inherit eternal life. We will be disinherited and cast out.

DHK -- I am re-evaluating my position based on your question. I do not wish to give you a snap answer off the cuff, and furthermore, I am in the midst of reading a book which has brought new questions to me regarding my Preterist position on the eschaton. Sorry, that is as good as it gits for now. I'll be sure to let you know when I come to some further conclusions.

Brother Ed

 

That's fine by me. I won't ask or "badger" you again about it. I am glad that it caused you to think about your position though. Let me know about your conclusions.
DHK

 

Hi Ron, Grant and Ed, oh and DHK too.

Ron and Grant, you could learn a lesson from Ed and use scripture when making an argument. (actually I am guilty of not directly using scripture at times as well) Anyway, point being that you made some syayements that counterdict the direct scriture used by DHK and I think Helen posted some too. So far DHK is winning the argument hands down because he back it up with God's word.

Ed, however came in and did use scripture to support what he was saying, in terms of the covenant issue anyway. Ed my question for you stems around the adoption thought. I know there is adoption sounding scripture but I wonder if you are putting too much stock in that scripture. What about the scripture (I hope to have time to find it and post it!) that speaks to us, in Christ that is, of being grafted into Him. If I have a skin graph it becomes "my body". To cut it out would be removing a piece of me. I see it that way with God. Earthly adoptions could be legally reversed but a skin graph is not reversable once it is done. I hate to restrain God to human thinking either way but the grafting picture is such a beautiful thing it is hard to not picture God's family like that.

Ed, thatnks for what you wrote, I will be looking at it more throughly and may have more questions.

take care, Happy Friday to all,
In Christ,
Brian

[ November 22, 2002, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

According to Isaiah 59:21 The forever covenant made with the one true Hebrew nation church of Israel - was made and in Matt 23 we see it break.

In Matt 18:21-35 we see the principle of forgiveness revoked applied to all the followers of Christ. The warning is clear in the text.

But as for this subject of appartions and visitations from the dead?? Pretty surprising that Chrisitans would go for it.

In christ,

Bob

 

http://www.myiwc.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2955

 

Millions of Christians today do still keep the 10 commandments - including the Sabbath. I am not sure that illustration makes your case.

God says He does not change in Malachi 4:1-3 and in Heb 13 we see it remains true in the NT. Christ IS the same yesterday today and forever!

So it is still wrong to resort to the dead - as Isaiah 8:19 states. We are told to seek God directly rather than going to the dead for our requests.

As good as Mary was - going to her for help after her death would be a mistake.

EVEN in her lifetime scripture shows no case of the Mariolotry we see practiced today. Queen of Heaven, Co-redemptrix, sinnless - claims to be All Powerful ... none of that specific Mariolotry is found in scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hi BobRyan,

You wrote, "Queen of Heaven, Co-redemptrix ... none of that specific Mariolotry is found in scripture."

I wouldn't be so quick to the draw when making dogmatic statements on what is and what isn't in Scripture.

I would refer you to some excellent Biblical Mariology, such as the work of Stephano M Manelli, F.F.I., but I don't think it would do much good as you seem like you are not open to anything Marian, irregardless of the Scriptural evidence.

If you are open, then I will give you a title or two, and you can inform yourself of the issues.

For a quick intro, I would suggest visiting

http://www.ewtn.com/library/scriptur/mary.TXT

and scrolling down to the title: "Mary as Queen Mother". If you have any interest in Old Testament typology and an open heart, I believe you will be pleasantly surprised.

I would also quickly suggest Edward Sri's Doctoral dissertation: "Queen Mother : a biblical theology of Mary's Queenship" (February 20, 2001). He's a Laureati graduate of the Angelicum in Rome and wrote "Mystery of the Kingdom", published by Emmaus Road - which is right down the hill from where I live in Steubenville.

And then concerning Coredemptrix in Scriputre, I suggest Manelli's text here:

http://www.voxpopuli.org/book_2_3.php

God bless you,

Carson

[ November 23, 2002, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]