AdoptedDaughter
New Member
And again...I ask...whose works were you referring to?
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Faith and works
- Thread starter AdoptedDaughter
- Start date
Adopteddaughter--
The question of the need of God is stated to declare the truth that God needs nothing from His creation. He is self-sustaining and nothing we can do or give increases or decreases who God is. If the whole world refused to respond to God, if the whole church refused to be involved in good works, God would still be God. He would still be complete, He needs nothing from us, He stands alone. He has priviledged us in making us His children. He has made it possible for us to worship and know Him. He is empowering us to do whatever He has called us to do.
No, He doesn't need us---We need Him for everything.
Bro Tony
AdoptedDaughter
New Member
Bro. Tony:
Not sure if you saw it, but after I finished writing what you quoted, I inferred that He doesn't need, but rather desires those from us.
Not sure if you saw it, but after I finished writing what you quoted, I inferred that He doesn't need, but rather desires those from us.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
So if works do not flow automatically from faith, and one has to be careful--make a conscious decision--to demonstrate one's faith through works, what happens to the one who decides not to express his faith by his works any longer? What happens (or has happened) to that one's faith?
You have misinterpreted, “Faith without works is dead.” James never wrote that works keep faith alive. But he did write that works perfect faith . There is a difference. I pointed out the difference in the illustration of the acorn. Works do not produce faith. Faith produces works.
Non-believers have works but not faith in Jesus. How do those works produce faith in Jesus? They are simply dead works.
If you look at the context of James 2;14-26 it is comparing genuine, saving faith and what the Jews called faith. Faith does not stem from works. Faith is the source of works. The Jews claimed to have had faith but they had no works. It’s like those who claim to make disciples but can’t name anyone who is living for Jesus Christ because of their life. They claim to have faith in Jesus but where are the disciples they are making? Where is their obedience to Mt. 28:19,20? They claim to have faith in Jesus but where is the proof? Their faith is dead. Their works show their faith.
“Faith without works is dead” means that the proof of your faith is seen in your works or deeds. What James is talking about in his book is the faith of the true believer and comparing it to the faith of a Jew who is a nominal believer. The Jew’s faith is in a statement and not in Christ. The Jews had no works consistent with faith in God. It was tradition and intellectual belief only. In James 1:19 he tell his readers to receive the “implanted word, which is able to save your souls.” Why did he tell them that if they already had a genuine faith?
I wrote, “Works do not keep faith alive. It is a relationship with God that keeps faith alive. The works that are produced from that faith in Jesus Christ are the kind that stem from a genuine saving faith. Abraham believed God.”
Works do not keep faith alive. Works perfect my faith. My faith is in Jesus Christ. Hebrews 11:6 says, “Without faith it is impossible to please Him.” If my faith is in Jesus then my works will be consistent with faith in Jesus. Works do not produce faith in Jesus. But my faith in Jesus is to produce good works.
I don't ever see in scripture the point of seeing how little one can get by with and have faith in Jesus still and a secure salvation. That is American theology that does not exist in countries where there is persecution.
Good works will flow from a person who loves God. A person who exudes Jesus cannot do otherwise.
I think Mt. 7:15-27 will answer your question well.
Mt. 7:15-27, "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, ` Lord , Lord ,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, ` Lord , Lord , did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell--and great was its fall."
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
I guess what I'm getting at is, what happens when a person who loves Jesus stops loving Him? If a person must be careful to maintain good works, doesn't this mean that one must continue to maintain his faith in and love for Christ since the works spring from his faith and express his love? And if one must choose to maintain his "faith working through love", can he not choose to do otherwise?
We can choose to sin or not sin. We can choose to go our own way. But we would be a fool to do so. If we did the Holy Spirit would never stop bugging us. A believer does not lead a life of habitual sin. The believer is not content to lead a life of sin. We have our part and God promises his part if we meet the condition he commands us to meet.
The Bible says in
1 John 1:5- 10 speaks to this; “This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.”
1 Cor 16:13, “Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. Let all that you do be done in love.”
2 Cor 13:5, “Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?
There are those who claim to be believers, who are not. In America we see so many who appear to be believers when in fact they are not. Remember when Jesus told about who would betray him and the disciples didn’t know who that would be. Judas had the disciples fooled but not Jesus. Jesus knew. We can be fooled but not God. God knows.
Hope this helps.
Hi all, I think the answer to the Faith and Works issue is just so simple that it is over-looked.
Faith is what saves and works are the result or the proof of the faith. Here is simple part. God judges the Heart. He knows the heart and so we can't "prove" anything to Him by what we do. What we do, can be an offering or worship but not proof because God sees us from the inside-out. Men see us from the outside-in and our good works are the proof to men to whom we belong and to whom we serve.
Thats what "let your light so shine before others...." is all about.
Sometimes it is the simple concepts in the Bible that confound us the most, because we look past the obvious.
In Love and Truth,
Brian
Faith is what saves and works are the result or the proof of the faith. Here is simple part. God judges the Heart. He knows the heart and so we can't "prove" anything to Him by what we do. What we do, can be an offering or worship but not proof because God sees us from the inside-out. Men see us from the outside-in and our good works are the proof to men to whom we belong and to whom we serve.
Thats what "let your light so shine before others...." is all about.
Sometimes it is the simple concepts in the Bible that confound us the most, because we look past the obvious.
In Love and Truth,
Brian
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Yet I submit that someone who at one time has faith which "worketh in love" can become negligent in walking in obedient faith and thus arrive at the point where he no longer bears fruit. This person may be left with an intellectual "faith" in the correct doctrines about Christ and in a previous conversion experience, but whose "faith" in reality is "dead". (See the "Parable of the Sower").
DT,
I am in full agreement with you last statement. My point is that a living vital faith always produces good works. A stagnant faith, that is not lived or walked in daily, produces no good works. That faith is a dead faith. How do we know it is dead? No good works are being produced. How do we know it is a living faith? Good Works.
Bro Tony
I am in full agreement with you last statement. My point is that a living vital faith always produces good works. A stagnant faith, that is not lived or walked in daily, produces no good works. That faith is a dead faith. How do we know it is dead? No good works are being produced. How do we know it is a living faith? Good Works.
Bro Tony
AdoptedDaughter
New Member
What you just said is a complete contridiction of scriptures. It's a complete contridiction of the verse right in front of your nose.
How are you so sure that you're not misinterpreting it? I mean...if scripture is left up to us to interpret it, who is to say whether what I interpret is the correct interpretation? Or for that matter? How do we know that our pastor is giving us the correct interpretation?
To leave scripture up to our own interpretation is a very dangerous thing; there's no way to know whether our interpretation is correct or not.
To get back on subject. I'm taking the Bible at it's words:
I'm taking the Bible at face value.