SolaScriptura in 2003
New Member
Can an individual be "universal"?
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Universal individuals
- Thread starter SolaScriptura in 2003
- Start date
As part of this question of can an individual be universal, I would ask who is “we” “us” and “our” in the Lord’s Prayer?
“ Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil [one.] “ Matthew 6: 9-13
It is us, praying as part of the universal Body of Christ. It was true for the apostles and disciples, and it is true for us today.
Sadly, many Christians never pray this way, even in their own churches. They say it’s not necessary. They don't see their faith or themselves as universal. Many have a “just me and the Lord” faith. Many never experience the “us”, “our”, “we” universal faith that Jesus taught. Jesus prayed that His church would be one.
God Bless
[ April 30, 2003, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
“ Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil [one.] “ Matthew 6: 9-13
It is us, praying as part of the universal Body of Christ. It was true for the apostles and disciples, and it is true for us today.
Sadly, many Christians never pray this way, even in their own churches. They say it’s not necessary. They don't see their faith or themselves as universal. Many have a “just me and the Lord” faith. Many never experience the “us”, “our”, “we” universal faith that Jesus taught. Jesus prayed that His church would be one.
God Bless
[ April 30, 2003, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
This thread isn't getting much interest, so I will expound on why an individual can be universal. Jesus Christ makes it possible.
"For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations," says the LORD of hosts. Malachi 1:11
This prophecy is fulfilled in the Sacrifice of the Mass which is offered every day all over the world. That pure offering is Jesus Christ. Catholics worship universally at every Mass which re-presents this one and the same sacrifice. Individuals are universal by being a member of the Body of Christ.
I am interested in how everyone else here view being universal and what it means to you. I would also be interested in any ideas why Jesus taught us to pray in plural, using "our", "us", "we" if it was not to pray as members of the Body of Christ.
Also how was the Malachi prophecy fulfilled, if not by the Sacrifice of the Mass? Thanks.
God Bless
[ May 01, 2003, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
"For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations," says the LORD of hosts. Malachi 1:11
This prophecy is fulfilled in the Sacrifice of the Mass which is offered every day all over the world. That pure offering is Jesus Christ. Catholics worship universally at every Mass which re-presents this one and the same sacrifice. Individuals are universal by being a member of the Body of Christ.
I am interested in how everyone else here view being universal and what it means to you. I would also be interested in any ideas why Jesus taught us to pray in plural, using "our", "us", "we" if it was not to pray as members of the Body of Christ.
Also how was the Malachi prophecy fulfilled, if not by the Sacrifice of the Mass? Thanks.
God Bless
[ May 01, 2003, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
Thank you, Kathryn, for bring this up, as it is something for Singer in another thread to consider as we are discussing the "bread of life discourse" in John, Chapter 6.
Singer should contemplate what a "grain offering" is..............
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!
SolaScriptura in 2003
New Member
In what way are these individuals universal? Are they omnipresent?
No, not omnipresent. You asked the question if an individual can be "universal". I am universal because I am a member of the Body of Christ. I can pray as a member of Body of Christ. I can worship as a member of the Body of Christ. I can live and follow Jesus Christ as a member of the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is universal. I have previously here given two examples which you haven’t addressed, so I will re-state:
1. As part of this question of can an individual be universal, I would ask who is “we” “us” and “our” in the Lord’s Prayer?
“ Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil [one.] “ Matthew 6: 9-13
It is us, praying as part of the universal Body of Christ. It was true for the apostles and disciples, and it is true for us today.
Sadly, many Christians never pray this way, even in their own churches. They say it’s not necessary. They don't see their faith or themselves as universal. Many have a “just me and the Lord” faith. Many never experience the “us”, “our”, “we” universal faith that Jesus taught. Jesus prayed that His church would be one.
2. This thread isn't getting much interest, so I will expound on why an individual can be universal. Jesus Christ makes it possible.
"For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations," says the LORD of hosts. Malachi 1:11
This prophecy is fulfilled in the Sacrifice of the Mass which is offered every day all over the world. That pure offering is Jesus Christ. Catholics worship universally at every Mass which re-presents this one and the same sacrifice. Individuals are universal by being a member of the Body of Christ.
Jesus Christ makes it possible to be universal by belonging to the Body of Christ.
God Bless
[ May 02, 2003, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
SolaScriptura in 2003
New Member
Pardon my pointing this out, but you aren't really saying that an individual is universal but that the Body of Christ is universal, which I doubt anyone denies.
SolaScriptura:
For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Romans 12:4-5
For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:12
Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it. 1 Corinthians 12:27
Do you believe you are individually members one of another? Scripture says you are. I don't think you really understand what the Body of Christ is. If the Body of Christ is universal which you have said it is, then the members of the Body of Christ are universal too. We are individually members one of another. Jesus makes this possible because He is God and this is what He has promised for His church, the Body of Christ.
God Bless
[ May 02, 2003, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
The Body of Christ is made of individuals. We are the members and Jesus Christ is the head of His Body, His Church.
For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Romans 12:4-5
For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:12
Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it. 1 Corinthians 12:27
Do you believe you are individually members one of another? Scripture says you are. I don't think you really understand what the Body of Christ is. If the Body of Christ is universal which you have said it is, then the members of the Body of Christ are universal too. We are individually members one of another. Jesus makes this possible because He is God and this is what He has promised for His church, the Body of Christ.
God Bless
[ May 02, 2003, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
SolaScriptura in 2003
New Member
I could fill a whole room if it were small, but could my hand fill the same room?
I have presented plenty of Holy Scripture that supports what I am saying. You seem to want to avoid what Holy Scripture is teaching here.
Why do you think Jesus taught us to pray using "our" "us" "we" in the Our Father Prayer? One reason is because we are no longer just individuals. Holy Scripture doesn't teach "just me and the Lord". We are individually members one of another. This makes us universal, just as the Body of Christ is universal. We are one. As individual members of the Body of Christ we have one Lord, one faith, and one baptism.
"For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another." Romans 12:4-5
God Bless
[ May 02, 2003, 02:28 AM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
Kathryn,
The Body of Christ is made of individuals. We are the members and Jesus Christ is the
head of His Body, His Church
Speaking as a Catholic, you refer to the Body of Christ as the "Church";
Do you mean Catholic Church when you quote that ?
Pointed out on this forum is the theory that the "Kingdom of God" is the
Catholic Church.
Would that mean that in the Lord's Prayer; praying for the kingdom to come means
praying that the Catholic Church will be extended....?
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be
done, as in heaven, so on earth.......“ Matthew 6: 9-13
"For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do
not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ,
and individually members one of another." Romans 12:4-5
As the Catholic Church being the body, then was Paul only speaking to
Catholicis in this verse (as he was addressing the "one body in Christ".)
He also made reference to we twice in that verse which would imply
that he (Paul) was Catholic also. Is that correct ?
Singer
[ May 02, 2003, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Singer ]
The Body of Christ is made of individuals. We are the members and Jesus Christ is the
head of His Body, His Church
Speaking as a Catholic, you refer to the Body of Christ as the "Church";
Do you mean Catholic Church when you quote that ?
Pointed out on this forum is the theory that the "Kingdom of God" is the
Catholic Church.
Would that mean that in the Lord's Prayer; praying for the kingdom to come means
praying that the Catholic Church will be extended....?
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be
done, as in heaven, so on earth.......“ Matthew 6: 9-13
"For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do
not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ,
and individually members one of another." Romans 12:4-5
As the Catholic Church being the body, then was Paul only speaking to
Catholicis in this verse (as he was addressing the "one body in Christ".)
He also made reference to we twice in that verse which would imply
that he (Paul) was Catholic also. Is that correct ?
Singer
[ May 02, 2003, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Singer ]
SolaScriptura in 2003
New Member
The fact that an individual prays "our Father" does not make the individual universal, it just shows that he/she has a sense of fellowship with others.
No, I am open to reading what anyone here wants to tell me the Body of Christ is as long as it is consistent with what Scripture says it is. Jesus says the Body of Christ is His church. The subject of this thread is, can an individual be universal. Using scripture I have shown how an individual can be universal if he or she is a member of the Body of Christ. To change this to a discussion of whether I believe this church is the Catholic Church would send it off on many tangents.
No one here seems to be able to discuss universality and the individual based on Scripture. Sola seems to say everyone here believes the Body of Christ to be universal, but those who belong to the Body are not.
Scripture however says:
Do you believe Scripture here is true? We are all one with each other if this is true. We who are many are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. This is universality. If you believe I am wrong, then what does this mean?
God Bless
[ May 02, 2003, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
[" Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it ." 1 Corinthians 12:27
Do you believe Scripture here is true? We are all one with each other if this
is true. We who are many are one body in Christ, and individually members one
of another. This is universality. If you believe I am wrong than what does this mean?
Maybe the word universal is as good as any. I sometimes refer to myself as a generic
christian as I don't belong to a church. It was engrained in me in my childhood that all
churches were worldly as we belonged to a sect that took pride in being the "narrow
way " and the offshoots of Jesus himself. So I don't have a problem with "universal"
I rather like it and I consider the body of Christ is any and all believers. Some like
to take the term "believers" and stretch that to the limit by tagging on alot of requirements
and obedience and making difficult translations from Greek, Hebrew and English.
Much word play seems to destroy what "believe" actually means. To me it is the
opposite of "not believing".
Compare your scripture above to this:
1 Corinthians 11:24
And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat:
this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
For those who take 11:24 as literal flesh and blood of Jesus, they
must also have proof that the ''body'' in 11:27 is the same flesh
and blood. Vs 27 says "You are Christ's body" so in that sense,
that person (You) must actually be Christ's flesh and blood. But
then again Carson says that the body of Christ is the Catholic
Church. So now we have the flesh and blood taken at communion
being the same flesh and blood that is the "You" in vs. 27
and it is also the same flesh and blood that is the Carson's "Body
of Christ", so now we have Catholics eating the Catholic Church
AND THEMSELVES AT COMMUNION.!!!
I think I'm finally "getting it". ........ but how else was I supposed
to apply my newly gained knowledge that the "body" is Christ's ACTUAL
flesh and blood ...?
It either washes or it's all Washed Up.!!
Bill Putnam.....take notice.
Singer
Do you believe Scripture here is true? We are all one with each other if this
is true. We who are many are one body in Christ, and individually members one
of another. This is universality. If you believe I am wrong than what does this mean?
Maybe the word universal is as good as any. I sometimes refer to myself as a generic
christian as I don't belong to a church. It was engrained in me in my childhood that all
churches were worldly as we belonged to a sect that took pride in being the "narrow
way " and the offshoots of Jesus himself. So I don't have a problem with "universal"
I rather like it and I consider the body of Christ is any and all believers. Some like
to take the term "believers" and stretch that to the limit by tagging on alot of requirements
and obedience and making difficult translations from Greek, Hebrew and English.
Much word play seems to destroy what "believe" actually means. To me it is the
opposite of "not believing".
Compare your scripture above to this:
1 Corinthians 11:24
And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat:
this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
For those who take 11:24 as literal flesh and blood of Jesus, they
must also have proof that the ''body'' in 11:27 is the same flesh
and blood. Vs 27 says "You are Christ's body" so in that sense,
that person (You) must actually be Christ's flesh and blood. But
then again Carson says that the body of Christ is the Catholic
Church. So now we have the flesh and blood taken at communion
being the same flesh and blood that is the "You" in vs. 27
and it is also the same flesh and blood that is the Carson's "Body
of Christ", so now we have Catholics eating the Catholic Church
AND THEMSELVES AT COMMUNION.!!!
I think I'm finally "getting it". ........ but how else was I supposed
to apply my newly gained knowledge that the "body" is Christ's ACTUAL
flesh and blood ...?
It either washes or it's all Washed Up.!!
Bill Putnam.....take notice.
Singer
Singer:
"Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?" 1 Corinthians 10:16
Scripture tells us how we share one with another in the Body of Christ. Scripture teaches we are sharing in the body and blood of Christ. 1 Cor 10:16 is also an example of our universality as members of the Body of Christ. How do you share in the blood of Christ, if you don't take the cup of blessing or eat the broken bread? Scripture says this is how it is done. You say you don't belong to any church. I just wonder what this means to you, if you believe Holy Scripture to be true.
[ May 02, 2003, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
"Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?" 1 Corinthians 10:16
Scripture tells us how we share one with another in the Body of Christ. Scripture teaches we are sharing in the body and blood of Christ. 1 Cor 10:16 is also an example of our universality as members of the Body of Christ. How do you share in the blood of Christ, if you don't take the cup of blessing or eat the broken bread? Scripture says this is how it is done. You say you don't belong to any church. I just wonder what this means to you, if you believe Holy Scripture to be true.
[ May 02, 2003, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
The concepts are different, yet apply to each other, as in FAMILY! We are the "body of Christ" in our union in His Church, all nourished by His "Body and blood" in the Eucharist!
We, all of us who are the "Body of Christ" is not to say that we are the Eucharist, which is nonsense.
But the "Body of Christ" as in the Eucharist is that food that feeds those who are part of the "body of christ."
It's a family thing, Singer...
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
"Gloria in excelsis Deo"
(Intoned by the celebrant of the Mass.)
(The choir response.)
Et in terra pax homininus
bone voluntatis
Laudamus te
Benedicimus te
Adoramus te
Glorificamus te,
Gratias agimus tibi propter
magnum gloriam tuum.
Domine Deus, Rex Coelestis,
Deus Pater omnipotens
Domine Fili unigenite
Jesu Christe Domine Deus
Agnus Dei Filius Patris
Qui tollis peccata mundi
miserere nobis.
Qui tollis peccata mundi,
suscipe deprecationem nostram.
Qui sedes ad dexteramPatris,
miserere nobis.
Quoniam tu solus Sanctus,
Tu solus Dominus
Tu solus Altissimus
Jesu Christe.
Cum Sancto Spiritu
in gloria Dei Patris
Amen.
- The Ambrosian Gloria -
http://www.solesmes.com/sons/gloria.ram
(Real monks chanting....)
Gregorian Chant - God's music!
