Good Question for you

DeafPosttrib · Dec 28, 2002

I have a challenge question for you as pretribbers.

Please show me where a verse saying, Rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier BEFORE Second Advent in the Bible?

donnA · Dec 28, 2002

Please show a verse where it actually says it will happen after the tribulation.

DeafPosttrib · Dec 28, 2002

SIMPLE!!

Matthew 24:29-31 saying,

"Immediately AFTERthe tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man COMING in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his electfrom one end of heaven to the other."

Jesus tells us, that Christ shall come AFTER tribulation, and shall be shout with a trumpet, and all Christians will be gather together.

Matt 24:31 is same with 1 Thess 4:15-17.

Now, I am waiting for anyone of you to show me where a verse in the Bible saying, Rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before Second Advent?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Pastor Larry · Dec 28, 2002

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Jesus tells us, that Christ shall come AFTER tribulation, and shall be shout with a trumpet, and all Christians will be gather together.
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If you read closely, that is not what it says. It says elect and refers to all who are on the earth at that time. This verse proves nothing with respect to the timing of the tribulation.

Matt 24:31 is same with 1 Thess 4:15-17.
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This is most certainly not true. 1 Thess 4:15-17 is written as comfort; Matt 24:31 is written as warning. What comfort is the tribulation? Of none whatsoever.

Now, I am waiting for anyone of you to show me where a verse in the Bible saying, Rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before Second Advent?
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Rev 3:10, 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 Thess 5:1-10; 2 Thess 2:1-8 in addition to the theological meaning and purpose of the tribulation. These passages of Scripture simply do not fit a posttribulation rapture.

You have conflated the second coming of Christ to earth with the rapture. But my suspicion is that you are no more interested in answer to these questions than you were previously since we have been through all the evidence for pretribulationism before and you chose to believe something else.

[ December 28, 2002, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

mountainrun · Dec 29, 2002

I prefer the passages which tell us that the dead in Christ will rise before the rapture and that the first resurrection is at the end of tribulation.

I don't spend much time arguing this topic because, as previously noted, everyone has already made up their minds.
I am one of the few who has ever been persuaded otherwise, by the logic of the above paragraph.

The important thing is for pretribbers to become aware if the time passes and they enter into the tribulation period.

I might note that I wish they were right and I was wrong.

MR

DeafPosttrib · Dec 29, 2002

Pastor Larry,

You do not believe the compare 1 Thess 4:15-17 & Matt. 24:30-31 are same.

There are 9 things are fit with 1 Thess 4:15-17 & Matt 24:30-31:

1. Coming

a)Coming - Matt 24:30
b)Coming - 1 Thess 4:15

2. Clouds

a)Clouds - Matt 24:30
b)Clouds- 1 Thess 4:17

3. Heaven

a)Heaven - Matt 24:30
b)Heaven - 1 Thess 4:16

4.Sound

a)Sound - Matt 24:31
b)Shout - 1 Thess 4:16

5.Trumpet

a)Trumpet - Matt 24:31
b)Trump - 1 Thess 4:16

6.Together

a)Together - Matt 24:31
b)Together - 1 Thess 4:17

7.Elect

a)Elect - Matt 24:31
b)In Christ - 1 Thess 4:16

8.Angels

a)Angels - Matt 24:31
b)Archangel - 1 Thess 4:16(Clear in 2 Thess 1:7)

9.Wind

a)Wind - Matt 24:31
b)Air - 1 Thess 4:17

Apostle Paul written the second epistle of Thessalonians on the resurrection, how does he received the words come from? From the revelation of Jesus Christ - Gal. 1:12. Paul said in 1 Thess 4:15 - "For this we say unto you by the WORD of the Lord...". Clearly, Paul received revelation from Jesus Christ.

The same person - Jesus Christ who spoken on the coming of Matt 24:30-31 & 1 Thess 4:15-17.

Pastor Larry, you say, it says, elect and refer to all who are on the earth at that time.

That correct.

Notice, 1 Thess 4:17 say, "we which are alive and remainunto the coming" Remain means, to be survive and left. Yes, many Christians who will still alive through Great Tribulation TILL Lord comes.

Pastor Larry, you give answer to my question - Rev. 3:10; 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 Thess 5:1-10; and 2 Thess 2:1-8.

The problem is, all of these verses didn't saying 3 1/2 or 7 years either.

"Hour of temptation" of Rev. 3:10 - pretribbers teaching on that verse, it means 7 years of Tribulation period. But, Apostle John doesn't saying "Hour" is 7 years.

Hour means period or time.

Good example - Matt 26:45 - Jesus said, "Sleep on now, and take rest: behold, the hour is at hand (why??) and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners."

Hour is not literal 60 minutes. Jesus means that, his TIME is arrived to face Judgment at Calvary. Jesus was arrested probably around 3 a.m. in the very late night. Then 12 hours later, Jesus died on the cross at the ninth hour(3 p.m.)

Rev. 3:10 is not talking about rapture. It is talking about keep us from the tempation(trails, persecutions, troubles). Being to keep is not mean rapture. It means to guard. Rev. 3:10 is same with John 17:15. Jesus asked God, NOT take Christians out of the world(sound like as rapture), but to keep Christians from the evil.

Matthew Henry was correct, that he saying, to keep us from the times of trials.

Many Christians already face tempations since Early Church to today.

We do not wait for "hour of tempation"- 7 year of Tribulation period. Many Christians already face tempations since Early Church to today!

The context of 1 Thess 4:13-18 is talking about concerning of their love one(saved) who already died, what will happen to dead Christians. Paul told them, do not be sorrow about their love one who already die, they WILL see their love again when Lord comes, so, to comfort them(alive) about their concerning of their love who already died.

1 Thess 4:13-18 do nothing with the timing of rapture. It is talking about what will happen to their love one who already died.

1 Thess 4:13-18 did not saying anything on 3 1/2 or 7 years.

1 Thess 5:1-10 did not saying anything on 3 1/2 or 7 years. It is talking about Day of the Lord shall come like as THIEF. Thief is for the lost people who will not watch for the coming of the Lord. Day of the Lord is Second Advent, not 7 year of Tribulation period.

2 Thess 2:1-8 did not saying anything on 3 1/2 or 7 years. It tell us, that day of Christ/gathering together shall NOT come till we will see apostasy('falling away') first and the revealed of Antichrist. 2 Thess 2:1-8 is very clearly posttrib coming.

Conclusion: Yet, not even ONE verse is telling clearly Rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before Second Advent.

So, I am waiting for anyone of you to show me very obivious(clear) verse telling us Rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier BEFORESecond Advent.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Caretaker · Dec 29, 2002

In the Rapture our Lord Jesus gathers His Bride, in whom His spirit dwells, (He who now letteth), from
the earth prior to that man of sin being revealed, "2 Thess.2:
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out
of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

In verse 2:7 we see the term "he who now letteth", this is a direct reference to the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit, who indwells all believers. Until He be taken away, and THEN that man of sin is revealed.

Please note that the lifting away of believers is NOT the second Advent for Christ does not set foot upon
the mount of Olives, we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Rapture

Matt. 25:1-13
25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went
forth to meet the bridegroom.
25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather
to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to
the marriage: and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Thess. 4:17-5-6
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet
the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail
upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of
darkness.
5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

2 Thess.2:
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out
of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the
love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the
twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1 Cor. 15:51-52)

The Coming of the Lord

In Luke 12:36 the Word states that when Christ returns He will be returning from a wedding. In Rev. 19:7-8 we read about the marriage itself. Before the marriage takes place, there is the marriage supper. According to Jewish custom the marriage contract is drawn up first, often including a dowry. This parallels the act of faith we use when we trust Jesus to be our savior. The dowry is His life, which was used to purchase us. When the time comes for the wedding to take place, the groom goes to the bride's house unannounced, she comes out to meet him, and then the groom takes the bride to his father's house. This is an exact correlation of the events according to the pre-trib scenario. Jesus, the groom, comes down from heaven, calls up the Church, and after meeting in the air, both He and the bride return to the His Father's house - heaven. The marriage supper itself will take place up in heaven, while down here on earth the final events of the tribulation are playing themselves out. After the marriage supper takes place, the bride and groom are presented to the world as man and wife. This corresponds to the time when Jesus returns to earth accompanied by an army "clothed in fine linen, white and clean." (Rev 19:14)

Matt. 24:29-31
24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall
not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the
earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great
glory.
24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his
elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev. 19:11-16
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called
Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name
written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen,
white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall
rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty
God.
19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD
OF LORDS.

Rev. 19:8
"To her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev. 19:14
"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Notice the fine linen white and clean is the righteousness of saints, which are in heaven.

We will then return with the Lord to the earth, and He will destroy the wicked and establish the Millennial Kingdom, and His saints will reign with Him on earth for one thousand years (Rev. 20:1-7).

Zech. 12:10
12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of
grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall
mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in
bitterness for his firstborn.

Zech. 14:4-9
14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the
east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and
half of it toward the south.
14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto
Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of
Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come
to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward
the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his
name one.

------------------
A servant of Christ,
Drew

Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Pastor Larry · Dec 29, 2002

As I suspected, you are not interested in answers. I will only answer quickly since it is pretty easy.

You do not believe the compare 1 Thess 4:15-17 & Matt. 24:30-31 are same.

There are 9 things are fit with 1 Thess 4:15-17 & Matt 24:30-31:
Click to expand...

But similarities do not mean identity. There are nine similarities between you and Christ. That does not mean that every passage that talks about Christ is talking about you. While that method of Bible Study can be helpful and is necessary, you must also consider differences. There are different audiences (church v. Israel), different authors (Paul v. Christ), different purpose (comfort v. warning), etc. These differences outweigh the similarities. Additionally, the whole line of thinking in 1 Thess 4 is not compatible with posttrib thinking.

"Hour of temptation" of Rev. 3:10 - pretribbers teaching on that verse, it means 7 years of Tribulation period. But, Apostle John doesn't saying "Hour" is 7 years.
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But the grammar of the verse indicates that it is a specific hour of trial, not general trial as your quote of Matthew Henry supports. It is not trial in general; Christians have always had that. It is a specific time of trial, designed to break down or show failure (as virtually all agree). This is shown by the use of the article referring to a specific period of trial rather than trial in general. You reference the truth that “hour means a period of time” and then cite Matthew Henry who disagrees with that and make it general trial. I think John 17:15 means the same thing as Rev 3:10; I think you have misunderstood both of them. “Keep them from the evil one” means out of the power of the evil one, not in the midst of the evil one. Satan never had power over the Christian. Therefore, we are not kept “in his power” but “from his power.” Additional support is found in John 12:27;, Acts 15:29, Hebrews 5:7, and James 5:20. The point of Rev 3:10 is a reward for faithfulness. It would be a horrible situation if your reward for faithfulness in more persecution is more persecution. Instead, the reward for faithfulness in persecution is removal from the Tribulation. If Christ wanted his church to believe that they would be kept “through” the tribulation, he would have said that using dia or en. As it is, he used ek – out of. The most natural meaning is out of. People who use 3:10 to support a posttrib view are supporting a view, not exegeting the text

1 Thess 4:13-18 is about the rapture and makes no sense with a posttrib view, as Walvoord points out in his article in Vital Prophetic Issues.

1 Thess 5:1-10 did not saying anything on 3 1/2 or 7 years. It is talking about Day of the Lord shall come like as THIEF. Thief is for the lost people who will not watch for the coming of the Lord. Day of the Lord is Second Advent, not 7 year of Tribulation period.
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In v. 9, the church is promised not to go through wrath, in context, the wrath of the DOL which can only be the tribulation. The connection of wrath and the DOL goes all the way back to the OT.

2 Thess 2:1-8 did not saying anything on 3 1/2 or 7 years. It tell us, that day of Christ/gathering together shall NOT come till we will see apostasy('falling away') first and the revealed of Antichrist. 2 Thess 2:1-8 is very clearly posttrib coming.
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But it reveals the consternation of the church at being told they are in the DOL. They were concerned because Paul had taught they would be removed before the Tribulation. A teaching that they were in the DOL is a false teaching according to Paul

The 3 1/2 year/7 year period of time is clear from both Daniel and Revelation.

But as I said earlier, this is not new ground. You have seen it all before and rejected it then in favor of your position. If you are genuinely interested, get out the books and the Scriptures and start studying.

DeafPosttrib · Dec 30, 2002

Tonight, I will answer many things what you said, back to you.

I will discuss on 2 Thess 2:6-8.

And many things I will discuss with you.

None of you answer ONE verse saying Rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier BEFORE Second Advent.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

DeafPosttrib · Dec 31, 2002

As I suspected, you are not interested in answers

No, not true. I am interested to read your answers. You did answers my question. So, thefore I am going to respond back your answers.

Pretribbers interpreting 'he' of 2 Thess 2:7 is Holy Spirit as restrainer.

The problem is, Paul does not mentioned on the Holy Spirit in the context of 2 Thess 2:3-8.

"He" of 2 Thess 2:7 is Antichrist/Satan, because of its context with verse 3 - 'man of sin' is Antichrist.

"man of sin", "son of perdition" - vs. 3
"himself", "he", "himself", "he" - vs. 4
"he", "his" - vs. 6
"he", "he" - vs. 7
"Wicked" - vs. 8

The context of 2 Thess 2:3-8 is focus on Antichrist, not Holy Spirit.

Paul tells them, - verse 6, that Antichrist could have be revealed now, but it is not his time yet. Antichrist is holding back from being to be revealed, because it is not his time yet.

Paul tells them, the wick things are already working in the world since creation to now - "the mystery of iniquity". Verse 7a is refer with 1 John 2:18 and 4:3.

Antichrist is now holding back by God.

I agree with pretribbers, Holy Spirit is restrainer. Understand, Holy Spirit is God.

Good example in the book of Job. Satan went up to heaven to face God sits on the throne. Satan asked God, for His permission to touch Job's body. Satan is limited by God. Because God have authority. Satan have to obey God's authority.

Antichrist is now holding back control by God, God does not allow Satan to be revealed, because it is not right time for Satan to ve revealed - vs. 6. God knows when the right time, then He will allow Satan to be revealed.

When, the time comes, Satan will be out of the way(midst), and then Satan to be revealed - vs. 8.

"Out of the way" is not rapture, or removal of the Holy Spirit. Antichrist will be removal from the mystery, and then to be revealed - verse 8.

I don't see the removal of the Holy Spirit in 2 Thess 2:7. It is talking about Antichrist is now holding back, till time comes arrive then, Antichrist shall be removal from the mystery, then to be revealed.

Paul tells us, the gathering together/day of Christ shall NOT come till we will see apostasy(falling away) and the revealed of Antichrist first - 2 Thess 2:1-3.

They were concerned because Paul had taught they would be removed before the tribulation.

No, Paul does not saying, they would be removed before the Tribulation.

A teaching that they were in the DOL is a false teaching according to Paul.

They were rumored about the coming of the Lord, not Tribulation. Paul told them, that we are appointed for Tribulation - 1 Thess 3:3-4.

They were concerning about the coming of the Lord - 2 Thess 2:2.

Day of the Lord is NOT tribulation. Day of the Lord is the Second Advent with God's wrath.

Both day of Christ and day of the Lord are same.

Matthew 25:1-13- Jesus gave the parable of ten virgins relate with the Second Advent. Five wise virgins with oil, represent they are saved, five fool virgins without oil, represent they are not saved.

Christ warns us, Christ will come like as thief in the night. There will be NO another chance for salvation AFTER Christ comes. All unbelievers will be cast away into everlasting punishment - lake of fire at the Second Advent.

1 Thess. 4:13-18 is talking about their love ones who already died, what will happen to dead Christians. Paul tells them, there is a hope that dead Christians will be risen again, and they will see their love ones again. 1 Thess. 4:13-18 have do nothing with the timing of rapture.

different purpose (comfort v. warning)

1 Thess 4:18 - comfort - talking about to comfort them about their love one who already died in Christ, they shall be comfort one other, not worry about what will happen to their love ones who already died. They will see their love ones again - reunion when Christ comes again, that is a comfort - blessed hope.

But, also, we should be comfort to one other while they are face tribulations, and persecutions in 1 Thess. 3:7 - "Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our afflications and distressby your faith:"

verse 7 is context with verse 3-4.

Yes, we should to comfort Christians who have troubles, sufferings, trials, persecutions, etc.

same with 2 Thess 1:3-4 telling us, that we ought to encourage Christians in patience and faith while face persecutions and tribulations.

1 Thess 5:1-6 telling us, the day of the Lord shall come like as thief in the night. It is warning for unbelievers who will not watch for Lord comes. But, Paul commanded us, that we should be in light, not be in darkeness, means, we must live blamless and holy. Day of the Lord is Second Advent to punish all unbelievers cast into everlasting punishment when Christ comes to sit on the throne to judge the world - Matt 25:31-46.

1 Thess 5:9 - Amen! We will never suffer the wrath of God. Tribulation is not same with wrath. We are appointed for tribulation - 1 Thess 3:3-4. But, we are not appointed for wrath, because we received salvation through Jesus Christ - 1 Thess 5:9.

You will notice anywhere in the book of Revelation never saying the wrath of God shall pour down upon all saints. It telling us, the wrath will pour upon all unbelievers only.

1 Cor. 15:51-52 telling us, that we all will be changed into immortal body with twinkle of the eyes means our body will change into glory very quickly when Christ comes.

1 Cor. 15:51-52 have do nothing with the timing of our body changed. But, 1 Cor. 15:52 tells us, our body shall be change at the LAST trumpet. The last trumpet is the seventh trumpet of Rev. 11:15. The judgment will be follow after the seventh trumpet - Rev. 11:18.

Luke 12:36 - you use this verse to prove that the Lord shall come from the wedding is pretrib. Because of the Marriage of the Lamb will take place in heaven during 7 year of Tribulation till Revelation 19.

Luke 12:36 have do nothing with Revelation 19. The context of Luke 12:36-40 is talking about watch for Lord's coming. Lord's purpose of Luke 12:36-40 commanded us, to be faithful, serving the Lord keep busy being as watch for the coming of the Lord. Lord commanded us to be ready always all the times, because Lord shall come like as thief in the night at the Day of the Lord - Second Advent.

The Marriage of the Lamb of Rev. 19:7-9 will not occur till at the END of Tribulation.

Many saints on earth during Tribulation, Christ is not yet finish built the church, he will continue built the church during Tribulation, till all are done, then all saints shall be out of Tribulation at the Second Advent, they will marry to Christ, "for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."

Wife is not ready yet, because many saints will be on earth during Great Tribulation, Christ will continue built his church till all things are done, then Christ comes, all saints will be caught up to meet Christ for to marry Christ at the Second Advent, when the saints are ready.

Rev. 19:11-16 - will occur at the Second Advent. Christ will destroy all armies at Armageddon.

We will be caught up as thief after 6th vial occurs, in Rev. 16:15 tells us, that we shall be caught up as thief, that we must be watch and read for Lord's coming. We will be gathering together before the battle of armageddon - Rev. 16:16.

Zechariah 12:10 will be fulfilled at the Second Advent, Jews shall be blessed, and also, many shall be mourned, they who picrced Jesus' hand on the cross. Zech. 12:11 tells us, that there will be Great White Throne Day in THAT day when Christ comes to judge the world. There shall be great mourning.

All of these prophecies in the O.T. talking about Second Coming, there is NONE verse saying pretrib coming anywhere in the O.T.!

Zechariah 14:4-9 telling us, that at the Second Coming, Lord's feet will touch on Mt. Olivet, it will be earthquake, as it become into a great valley, so, Christ will judge the world, all unbelievers shall be cast away into everlasting punishment.

Jesus Christ shall be our King over all the world and he shall reign over the world forever and ever.

different audiences (Church v. Israel)

Dispensationalism teaches Israel and Church are separate. I will post a new topic about dispensationalism soon.

One simple question: Are you part of Abraham's seed - Gal. 3:28-29?

Jesus never direct toward Jews only anywhere in the context of Matthew chapter 24 & 25. Christ speak to us as Christians both Jews and Gentiles.

different authors (Paul v. Christ)

"If any man preach any othergospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." - Gal. 1:9

Does Paul preached different gospel as Jesus preached the gospel?

No. Paul preached the same gospel as Jesus preached the gospel.

Paul wrote 1 Thess 4:15-17 by received the revelation from Jesus Christ's word. 1 Thess 4:15-17 is not Paul's idea. Paul wrote quote from Lord's words, what the Lord saith. Paul received the revelation from Jesus Christ - Gal. 1:12.

Rev. 3:10 - pretribbers intepreting - "out of" prove that the church will be rapture before the hour of tempations come. John does not saying that verse is rapture. Rev. 3:10 is talking about to guard or keep us while we are face tempations. Means, if we keep the commandments of God, God will take care of us, while we face temptations.

1 Corinthians 10:13 - "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

1 Cor. 10:13 is same with Rev. 3:10. It tells us, that God will not allow us to face great temptations, because God knows our weakenesses. Christian males have weakeness is lust of women. But, it tells us, that we should escape from being fall into sins while face tempations. Tempation is not sin. If commited follow the temptation, then it is sin.

Good example - Joseph. Joseph faced tempted from master's wife for asked him to sex. Joseph refused. But, she keeped on asked him few times, he was so stubborn refuse to sex with her. When she touched or grabbed Joseph's garment, Joseph immediately escaped from her - Gen. 39:7-13. This example is apply with 1 Cor. 10:13.

I have another verses are fit with Rev. 3:10-11: Rev. 2:10 - "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast come fo you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

Rev. 2:10 is talking about our sufferings, if any Christian is suffering endure during persecution by dying to death, not give up on faith while face persecutions, a Christian who will make all the way to death with suffering, then shall receive the crown of life.

Rev. 2:10 refers with James 1:12 says, "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."

James 1:12 is same with Rev. 2:10 & Rev. 3:10-11.

James 1:12

"tried" - vs. 12a

Rev. 2:10

"tried" - vs. 10a

James 1:12

"crown of life" - vs. 12b

Rev. 2:10

"crown of life" - vs. 10b

Another compare of James 1:12 & Rev. 3:10-11:

James 1:12

"tried" - vs. 12a

Rev. 3:10

"try" - vs. 10

James 1:12

"crown" - vs. 12b

Rev. 3:11

"crown" - vs. 11

James 1:2 tells us, we should be joyful when we face tempations.

We do not escape from tempations. Tempation is not God's wrath. Temptation is trials, persecutions, troubles, and tribulations.

Apostle John does not saying, "Hour of tempation" is 7 year of Tribulation period.

Hour of Rev. 3:10 is not mean literal 60 minutes. It means period, time.

Matthew Henry Commentary on Rev. 3:10. He is right what he said on Rev. 3:10: " By keeping the gospel they are prepared for the trial; and the same divine grace that has made them fruitful in times of peace will make them faithful in TIMES of persecution.

We do not wait for 'hour of temptation' to come arrive - 7 year of Tribulation period. Many Christians already face temptations since Early Church. Philadelphia Church already faced tempations during John's time in around 95 A.D.

'Hour of tempation' is TIMESof persecution.

Rev. 3:10 is not talking about Second Advent. It is not talking about resurrection. It is not talking about the wrath of God. It is talking baout if we keep the commandments of God, He will take care of us while we face trials. If we do not keep the commandments, then we might face danger times of trials means our life might be mess up. If we keep the commandments, we will not face any danger times of trials.

But, any Christian who face trials are not direct from the wrath of God. The trials on Christians are the purpose, that God is testing on us see our our faith are.

The point of Rev. 3:10 is a reward for faithfulness

Yes, that is correct.

Unless, if we keep the commandments and continue with our faith, then we will receive the reward. If we do not commandment and not stay with faith, then shall not receive the reward.

Conclusion:

No verse anywhere in the Bible saying Rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier BEFORE Second Advent.

I am still waiting for you to prove ONE verse saying Rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before Second Advent.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

romanbear · Jan 2, 2003

Hi Caretaker;
I read your explaination of the pretrib rapture.I thought it to be about the best I've seen so far.I have always hoped for a pretrib rapture but have been open to other interpations as well.Would it be alright to copy and post this some where else.
May God Bless
Romanbear
Peace

donnA · Jan 2, 2003

What it does say in 1 Thes. 4:17 is that the raptured will meet Jesus in the clouds in the air, then in Rev. we are told that Jesus is not coming in the air and thats as far as He comes, but that He is coming onto the earth. Clearly in 1 Thes.4:17 Jesus only comes as far as the clouds, why, because it is not time for the final battle and judgement. Clearly two seperate events.

Caretaker · Jan 2, 2003

Dear Romanbear;

Help yourself, for this is the precious Word of God and open for all His precious children, and God bless you.

A servant of Christ,
Drew

DeafPosttrib · Jan 3, 2003

1 Thess 4:15-17 telling us, Christ shall descend out of heaven for the coming. Descend simple means down. Also, it does not saying, Jesus will return back to heaven after he descend and gathering all saints together.

Millions of Christians who already died in Christ, they are now in heaven right now. When Christ comes again, he shall bring with them from the heaven.

The marriage of the Lamb will occur at the end of Tribulation.

When Christ comes, the Church will be gathering together, and we will "marry" to Jesus Christ in the air at the Second Advent.

1 Thess 4:17 does not saying where Jesus goes, but we will be ever with the Lord forever and ever.

I am still waiting for anyone of you to show me where ONE clearly verse in the Bible, it proves, it saying Rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier BEFORE the Second Advent.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

baptistteacher · Jan 7, 2003

Another item to consider is the 3 point outline of the book of Revelation as given in Rev.1:19
“Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;”
the things which thou hast seen - Chap 1
the things which are - Chap 2-3 (the Church Age)
the things which shall be hereafter - Chap 4-22

In Rev 4:1 “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” It obviously states here that this is the beginning of the things which will be hereafter, corresponding to the same phrase in 1:19. After this verse, which is before the tribulation, there is no more mention of the church on earth. The Christians are hereafter mentioned as being gathered in the presence of the Lord. There is the mention of the Tribulation Saints, those who do turn to God during this terrible time of the wrath of God, the purpose of which is to bring sinners to repentance.

Another example - Jesus said "As it was in the days of Noah..." Noah and his family were taken into the ark before the wrath of God fell upon the earth.

DeafPosttrib · Jan 8, 2003

Revelation 1:19 covers the history from past, present, and future from beginning(creation) to the end of the world.

Many believe Rev. 4:1- "After this" means after the Church Age over. John does not saying it. John tells us, after he received the vision of the seven churches as Jesus giev his instruction on the seven churches, as Jesus finished with the instruction of the seven churches is over. Then, John received another vision of heaven.

"After this" does not saying that the Church Age is over. It means, after he saw the vision of the seven churches as Jesus given the instruction on them is over.

Revelation chapter 2 and 3 does not give the hint of the timeline on the "Church Age". These churches were exist during John's time. These churches received the instruction from Jesus Christ. Christ knew the seven churches' character and spiritual how strengtheth and weakness they are. These churches of Revelation 2 & 3 are apply to all individuals of all ages from Early Church to the end of the world(at the Second Advent).

Rev. 4:1 is not Rapture. It is talking about John was called by Angel, the angel asked John, to come up here, so, John went up to heaven in his vision. "come hither" found three times in Rev. 4:1; 17:1; and 21:9.

All of these have do nothing with Rapture. John was called by the angel, for to come here and to show John to see things.

"Hereafter" of Rev. 4:1. Pretribbers intepreting it means it will take place after the Church Age over is the future event- Rapture.

John tellng us, that the angel showed John in the heaven and to show him to see the future things. Rev. 4:1 is not talking about Rapture of the Church. It is talking about John was called up by angel in his vision. And also, Revelaiton chapter 4 & 5 is talking about the activity in the heaven, not talking about the Second Advent.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

DeafPosttrib · Jan 8, 2003

I forget add to saying something on Noah.

Matt 24:37 tells us, "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the COMING of the Son of man be."

Jesus tells us, in the days of Noah, the flood came and destroyed all unbelievers, so, it shall be SAME as the coming(Second Advent) of the Lord will take all unbelievers away like as thief in the night at the Second Advent - Matt 24:40-41 & Luke 17:34-37 too.

It is very clearly posttrib coming.

Now, please show me where verse saying Rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier BEFORE Second Advent in the Bible?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Ed Edwards · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Now, please show me where verse saying Rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier BEFORE Second Advent in the Bible?
Click to expand...

I like your new mantra

Need to run to work.
Things that irk posties
The emmanency of the Rapture!
The literal MK=millinnial kingdom.

May God prosper you until the
pretribulation rapture!

DeafPosttrib · Jan 8, 2003

Ed,

None scripture in the Bible saying Rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before the Second Advent.

Then, why did pretrib teaching Rapture will occur 7 years before the Second Advent? They have to prove one verse saying Rapture will occur 7 years earlier before Second Advent.

Ed Edwards · Jan 8, 2003

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib a-mill outline:

0.4. church age continues
(this is the same as a spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom)
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
5. new heaven & new earth

Ed recommends the pretrib pre-mill
view as aligning most nearly with Holy Scripture.

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