Good Question for you

Once i saw a blind man bloody
his face. He knows a vehicle was
to his right. He found the bumper and the
rear wheel. He did not see the camper on
the back of the pick-up.
Had he seen the camper, he would have known
to check the extended mirror needed by
the driver to see
around the camper.
Looking for the curb at which the pick-up
was parked, he ran full face into
the rear view mirror.

Pastor Larry: "But my suspicion is that you
are no more interested in answer to these
questions than you were previously since
we have been through all the evidence for
pretribulationism before and you chose to
believe something else."

So i'll just say some things that might interest
those whose minds aren't already made up.

First a bit of personal testimony.
I was born the first time in Sept 1943.
I was born the second time in April 1952.
I went to a series of revival meetings with
a pretrib rapture bent in the First Baptist
Church of Elk City, Oklahoma. This is what
those pretribbers told me:

Romans 10:9 (KJV1873):
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth
the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart
that God hath raised him from the dead,
thou shalt be saved.

After confessing some sins that kept me from believing,
i believed and first confessed 50+ years
ago that Jesus is my Lord. Then I was saved,
born again, redeemed, etc. Must have worked.
For even today, fifty years later: Jesus is
still my Lord and still my Savior. And thus
always shall it be until i die or The Lord Jesus
comes near earth one unknown day at the
pretribulation Rapture/resurrection. Hey, neat,
if i die, i'll still be at the rapture/resurrection.
I've been arguing for the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection for the past 18 years on
the internet. Oh, i know, the internet hasn't
been here for the past 18 years. But i started
out on GEnie (the folks who lost to AOL).
I started out expecting Jesus would come get me
in the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
I still today, 8 Jan 2003 expect one of these
days Jesus will come from heaven to get me
at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.

Amen, praise JEsus!!

BTW, i might mention that Brother DeafPosttrib
has been on my "Pray for daily" prayer list
for the past three months or so.

May all God's best blessings be this day unto
Brother DeafPosttrib, his family, and his
ministry. May this be done so that we
might bring all the more honor and glory
unto our beloved Lord and Savior: Messiah Iesus.
Amen.

 

Ed's outline of the future:
(Compared to 2 Thessalonians 2)

0. church age continues
(v.2 discussion)

1. rapture/resurrection
(v1: our gathering together unto him)
(v3: falling away)

2. Tribulation time
(start, v.3: revelation of man of perdition)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(v.1: The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ)

4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
(v.2 Day of Christ)

5. new heaven & new earth

-------------------------------

Ed's outline of the future:
(Compared to Mount Olivet Discourse
in Matthew 24)

0. church age continues
(Matthew 24:4-20
1. rapture/resurrection
(Matthew 24:31-44)
2. Tribulation time
(mentioned in v.29)
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(Matthew 24:21-30)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

-------------------------------

Ed's outline of the future:
(Compared to Revelation)

0. church age continues
(Revelation 2 & 3)
1. rapture/resurrection
(by metaphor: Revelation 4:1)
2. Tribulation time
(Revelation 4:2 - 19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(Revelation 19:11 - 19:21)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
(Revelation 20)
5. new heaven & new earth
(Revelation 21)

 

Pastor Larry said after listing the
pretrib scriptures:
"in addition to the theological
meaning and purpose in the Tribulation".
This meaning DeafPosttrib has yet to see.
Nor do i have time to start with each
of the great doctrines which all must
lead into the pretribulation rapture:
the doctrine of the Trinity
the doctrine of Salvation
the doctrine of the Soverignty of God
etc. But they all do.

Pastor Larry: "You have conflated
the second coming of Christ
with the rapture. As can be seen in my
first post today, this is common among
posties: both of the pre-mill type and
the a-mill type (to which Brother DeafPosttrib
adheres).

Caretaker above lists many
scriptures which undenyably
show a rapture before the Second Advent:
which is the co;ming of Jesus in which
He defeats the AC=antichrist and sets up
the MK=millinnial kingdom.

Reminds me, a-mills don't teach a
literal MK= millinnial kingdom.
Oops, bye-bye Revelation 20

DeafPosttrib: "None scripture in the Bible
saying Rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years
earlier before the Second Advent."

Don't complaine to me about it.
I didn't write the Bible, i only read it
Seems to me you make a requiraement upon God
to ;show in ONE VERSE what He choose to let you
figure out for yourself from the
clear scripture given.
Well, I'm not going to
defend God here. He is
quite capable of doing His own defense

DeafPosttrib: "Then, why did pretrib teaching Rapture
will occur 7 years before the Second Advent?
They have to prove one verse saying Rapture
will occur 7 years earlier before Second Advent."

Ah, you wonder why pretribs teach the Rapture
7-years before the Second Advent.
We do so because it appears obvious that
is the way things are, even if no verse says:
"the Rapture is 7-years before the Second Advent".
It is quite clear to me that the pretrib rapture
theory is taught by the Bible -- but NOT
in one verse as requird by some.

 

Consider the premil-pretrib
timeline in light of 2 Peter 3:10

0. church age continues
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

2 Peter 3:10 (KJV1769):

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief
in the night; in the which the heavens shall
pass away with a great noise, and the elements
shall melt with fervent heat, the earth
also and the works that are therein shall
be burned up.

The Day of the Lord includes all 1,007 years
of elements 1,2,3 and 4 above.
The last phrase speaks of the desctruction
of the earth in preperation for
element 5.

Well, come to think of it 2 Peter 3:10 says the
world ends on the day of the Lord.
A-mill posties overlook 2 Peter 3:8 which says
A DAY with the Lord is like 1,000
years among mankind..

If one uses a template of 2 Peter 3:10
against Revelation, then Revelation 20 has
to go (just spiritualize it ).
I recommend the premill method of
understanding 2 Peter 3 in light of Revelation,
use the outline of Revelation (given several
posts back, and 2 Peter 3 makes sense and
doesn't require spiritualizing Revelation 20 away.

[ January 08, 2003, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]

 

Ed notes that none of the three methods of
interpertation of future events mentioned above
violate any of the fundamentals of
Fundamentalism:

1. the inspiration and infallibility of Scripture
2. the diety of Christ
3. the substitutionary atonement of Christ's death
4. the literal resurrection of Christ from the dead
5. the literal return of Christ in the Second Advent

Our eschatology is NOT a issue of salvation,
never is, never was.

 

Amen, Sister kate B. -- Preach it!

 

Amen Brother BaptistTeacher -- Preach it!

[ January 08, 2003, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]

 

The 70th week of Daniel 9:27
clearly shows the first half of the week AC comes to power,
middle of the week commits the AOD = abomination
of desolation.
But a-mills posties say the "he" in Dan 9:27
refers to MESSIAH; pre-mill pretrib says
"he" points to the last mentioned person:
"the prince who is to come", i.e. the AC=antichrist.

The a-mill then errs attributing the first
3.5 years (half a week of 7-years) to the
years of the ministry of Jesus. To bad that Jesus
might not have ministered 3.5 years
in fact, the ministry of Jesus from the Baptism
by John the Baptist to the crucifixion might
only have been two years. Don't know why
the a-mill folk confuse antichrist and Christ
in Daniel 9????

Anyway, the 7-year period of the rule of the
AC=antichrist is the Tribulation period.
Which reminds me of another a-mill error:
the Tribulation is NOT a condition,
it is a time period.
The Tribulation is the time from the pretrib
rapture/resurrection which ends this
present age to the Second Advent which starts
the MK=millinnial kingdom.
Never could get an a-mill person to figure
out the difference between:

Tribulation - a time period
tribualtion - troubles and woes

But i'm still working on it

 

BTW, in our previous encounters on other boardss,
I failed to remember where it says JEsus will rule
in the MK from the city of Jerusalem.
The verse is Isaiah 24:23.

Isaiah 24 is largely about the Tribualtion Period
and ends with Jesus ruling from Jerusalem.
That is just like the rerst of the Bible.

I ran out of time, not material.
See you in a day or three.

 

Thanks Bro. Ed for bringing in Dan. 9. I was going to do that next.

BTW, has anyone noticed that Matt. 24, commonly called the Olivet Discourse, is particularly speaking about the Jewish situation during the Tribulation? Taking scriptures from here out of context have been the source of much confusion.

In Christ

 

Amen, Brother BaptistTeacher -- Preach it!

You are welcome. I'll speak more of Daniel 9
tonight, if i have time. The 7-years is
the 70th Week of Daniel. But a-mill posttrib
blindness fails to see it. One just has to
slay lots of Holy Scripture to be a-mill
postrib.

Here are the favorite parts of Matthew 24
that a-mill posttrib has to ignore:

Matthew 24:3 (nKJV):

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives,
the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be?
And what will be the sign of Your coming,
and of the end of the age?"

Three questions, all of which Jesus answered
(per pre-mill) none of which Jesus
ignored (per a-mill posttrib).
The answer of Jesus about the end of
the age question is contained in
Matthew 24:31-44. At a time unknown to
anybody, Jesus will come get the
church age, gentile age, this present age
saved, born-again, Christian saints
at the pretrib rapture/resurrection.
As Noah and his family were taken off
the surface of the earth to escape the
hazards of the flood, so Jesus shall take
the church age saints off the face of the
earth to escape the coming Tribulation Period
storm. Amen!

 

Oh yes, the other part of the
MOD=Mount Olivet Discourse that
a-mill posttribs like to skip is this:

Matthew 24:21 (nKJV):

[/b]For then there will be great tribulation,
such as has not been since the beginning
of the world until this time,
no, nor ever shall be.[/b]

But then after reading this, the a-mill
posttribs will say we have been in the
Tribulation period every since 70AD
(some say since Jesus went up to heaven).
Come, there is tribulation (the condition)
and then there is Tribulation Period =
hell come to earth. Please notice the
difference, Jesus did.

 

Here is a document i wrote earlier
to explain all i know (pre-mill pretrib)
about the subject of tribulation (the
condition) and Tribulation (the time period):

-------------------------------------------
Five tribulations

The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adan & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the undiluted wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation found
in the O.T.:

The Tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.

 

Math lesson:

3½-years
1260 days divided by 360 days per year = 3½-years
42 months divided by 12 months per year = 3½-years
time, times, and half a time = 1+2+½ = 3½-years

Daniel 9:27 divides the 7-year period
into two halfs, each 3½-years in duration.
At mid Tribulation Period, the AC= antichrist
commits the AOD=abomination of desolation.
This leads to the last half of the Tribulation
Period: the Great Tribulation.

Revelation 12:6 tells that ISrael
flees to the wilderness for 1260 days = 3½-years.

Revelation 12:14 says that Israel
is kept by Jesus in the wilderness for
time, times, and half a time = 3½-years.

Revelation 11:2 says the Gentiles tread
Jerusalem underfoot for 42 months = 3½-years

These three are the last 3½-years of
the Tribulation Period, the Great Tribulation.

Revelation 11:3 says the two witnesses
prophesy for 1260 days = 3½-years.
To whom shall they witness if they
go into the wilderness with the rest of Israel?

Revelation 11:1-2 speaks of the Tribulation Period
Temple. Revelation 11:3 immediately follows
Revelation 11:1-2. Will the two witnesses
do their witness near or at the Temple mound?
How can "any man will hurt them" if they are
off to the wilderness with the rest of Israel.
It is foolish to think that the 2 witnesses
are active the same 3½-years that Israel
is in the wilderness. Fortunately, the 7-year
Tribulation Period shown in Daniel 9:27
has two each 3½-year periods.

This means that the death of the two witnesses
is part of the mid-Tribualation Period crises,
as well as the committing of the AOD=abomination
of desolation by AC.

So here are the events of the 7-year
Tribulation Period:

A. start of the Tribulation Period:
A.1 - rapture takes place
A.2 - peace treaty between AC and Israel

B. First half of the Tribulation Period
B.1 - two witnesses active
B.2 - 144,000 Holy Israeli active

C. mid-Trib crises
C.1 - two witnesses slain by AC
C.2 - AOD=abomination of desolation committed by AC
C.3 - Israel flees to the wilderness

D. Second half of the Tribulation Period
(Israel safe in the wilderness)

E. End of the Tribulation Period:
The Second Advent of Jesus,
the second coming of Jesus to defeat the AC
and set up the literal MK=millinnial Kingdom

 

Brother DeafPosttrib:
your quote of Joel 2:31 as being
prophetic of the Second Advent
is weak. The prophecy of Joel
in Joel 2:31 is declared by
Peter to have been fulfilled when
the Holy Spirit descended on the day
of Pentacost 33AD (some say 27AD,
but ed says 33AD). For you see,
Acts 2:15-21 quotes Joel 2:28-32.

Another a-mill posttrib "proof" shot
down by Brother Peter

 

Brother DeafPosttrib, your quote
of Zephaniah 1:14-15 to support
your contention that the Day of the Lord
is only the Second Advent
is a weak argument. For the pophesy
of Zephaniah carefully defines the
time period i've called the Tribualtion Period.
But thank you for reminding me.
I always appreciate when you use verses
that prove MY POINT

 

Have you noticed that Christ is addressing his *apostles* in this discourse, which are part of the Church?

Agreed.

 

I understand. I've been there before,
did the evening shifts, got the "t" .

As always we are in daily prayer for you
to have good success in life and a fruitful
ministry.