Redemption

What is too late?

 

Well, when you get within a few million light years of proving we had to do something, we'll let you know.

 

How about this?

Luke 6:46-49

"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete."

 

Are you talking about the fruit of the Spirit? Or are you talking about "doing something to gain salvation?" If it's the former, then I don't understand why you're discussing it in this forum. If it's the latter, then your quote doesn't even come close enough to be viewed by the Hubble.

 

It has been experience that what I would call fruit of the Spirit, people like Frogman call "doing something to gain salvation."

Frogman,

I'd appreciate it if you'd answer the question I asked.

[ February 06, 2003, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

Rev G.

The whole world was Justified by Jesus death upon the cross, for Jesus said, "if I be lifted up I'll draw all men to me" So Jesus justifies mankind, BUT it is only through our individual belief that we are Sanctified. That is, by believing in Jesus our spirit it transformed from unbelief to belief, thus setting us apart from all those around us that refuse to believe. Regardless of whether or not one is of "the elect", one can hear the word and believe in Jesus and is thus, just as saved as any so called elect.

Frogman,

PHONEY BALOGNA, none are redeemed until they allow themselves to be redeemed! The Apostle Paul is the only recorded incident that differs.

Redemption, under God's grace, comes to those who hear the word and believe, Redemption is personal and individual.

Do you truly believe that Grace is something that can be 'given'? What a foolish notion. Grace is an attribute of God and man since man is made in the image of God. Grace is not a commodity that God dispenses like giving candy to kids. God's Grace is what tempers his behavior toward sinful man. When God withholds his Grace, His Justice and wrath will be poured out over his creation.
Frogman,

Until the time the God removes his Grace from mankind, it is never to late.

2000 years ago, God Justified Man through His Only Begotten Son, So that

Whosoever Believeth on Him (redemption) should not perish but have everlasting life (Salvation).


Npetreley, Tour is correct in not allowing a different definition of doing nothing.

Thoughts on belief

Belief is 'of the spirit', but it is not a 'fruit of the spirit'. Belief enables the fruits of the spirit. Belief 'is not a work unto salvation' but is the only means of salvation that God provided for man while His Grace prevails.

 

Yelsew,

That's an impressive amount of error in a single post.

Justification is the imparting of a new status before God, that of being righteous. Jesus did not do that. We are justifed by faith. Certainly the daily death sentence is one whereby we are sanctified, but this activity is an extensionof the believig to be jsutified, not a separate thing.

As to John 12:32, this textdoes not even speak to Justifcation. it is about the general call. In the Cross Jesus calls people from all nations to repent. It is a staeketn that Jesus is calling peopelf rom every tribne and antion, it fdoes not eman that all people are justified.

You just make this up as you go along don't you?

Can't even get through the rest of that mess... its to much.

 

first of all, people like frogman believe there is nothing any can do to gain salvation; the questioning I was reading was worded to lead to that end. Next, I answered that you can do what ever you want and that is fine with me because you are too late in matters of salvation/justification/redemption because, unless you or I or any other man are ever able to stand in the wrath of God as Christ stood, there is nothing we can do to bring about our spiritual birth. Jesus has done it all.

Now let's move to John 12.32.

The text referenced states:

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

The context of this scripture will shed more light on its meaning:

vs.33: "This he said, signifying what death he should die."

Also Yelsew asserted Christ died for the sin of all men. Using this reference:

Let's see:

vs.31: "Now is the judgement of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

Jesus says nothing about the sin of man. He says only Now is the judgement of this world
Regardless of what anyone says, I do not think we can stretch this world into meaning man.

Next Jesus says: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Again his words are speaking of satan and man is not found...not until we come to your referenced verse at 12.32 and here Jesus says:

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

First thing to notice is Jesus is the subject of the scripture; and then the scripture is written "to signify what death he should die." Next notice he says "if I be lifted up from the earth, will" that is a key element here which is in line with other scripture; that is that Jesus will; then we ask what?? He will what?? He answers "draw all men unto me"

First thing to notice here is that men is in italics which means it's usage is not supported in the original manuscripts, but the inclusion seemed to make the reading more smooth. Notice without "men" the scripture reads just "will draw all unto me." "all" what all men; hardly, for God cannot fail; when we consider that even one failing to be drawn to Christ in Godly sorrow and repentance would signify a loss to God. But I submit this means that all men will be drawn, but not anywhere does Jesus say this drawing is effectual to an extent that all men will repent and receive salvation.

Regardless of our belief on this the fact remains the scripture says (speaking of Jesus) "I" "will"

Not they "will" be drawn unto me.

I believe Jesus will draw all the elect to Himself.

As for your dealing with the "world" well, Jesus died for all sin; and even that which the world was plunged into as a result of the Fall of Man.

So when the bible references world it means just that, Jesus died for all of creations' sin debt. Those who come to him do so only because they have a drawing from the Father. Besides you cannot show me where that someone who continually hears the Gospel day in and day out really wants it any other way. If they did desire from their own will to come to the light, the light is there, why do they yet not come? Simply because they, as we ourselves once were, are spiritually dead and cannot come, even if for a season they hover around the fringes of that light, their nature will call them back into the nether reaches of darkness where they are able to pursue the lusts of the flesh. On the contrary, their hope is in this world alone and they have no need for the things which bless our lives.

In Matt. 7 we are even admonished to not throw our pearls before swine. Our only commission is to proclaim the truth as God has revealed it and then it is upon God to make that truth effectual unto the hearers.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Jesus' blood atonement is what allows us to be saved. I don't think you will find a single Christian who doesn't believe that, at least at this site.

unless you or I or any other man are ever able to stand in the wrath of God as Christ stood, there is nothing we can do to bring about our spiritual birth.

Would you please explain this answer in view of the Luke 6 passage I quoted?

 

Since context is important to you [John 12:28]

Jesus was not speaking to spiritual powers or principalities, he was speaking to mankind, a crowd of humans. He was telling them that he would die on a cross and that by his death HE will draw ALL men to him. Seems clear to me!

 

There is no sin in the world save for the sin of man! Cattle do not sin, dogs do not sin, fish do not sin, etc., etc., etc. The mountains do not sin, the Trees do not sin, the sky does not sin, the rivers do not sin, the seas do not sin. So what does that leave? MAN!

 

Any reply Frogman?

 

Yes, however, my reply is Biblical and Yelsew may or may not recognize it. Nevertheless,

Romans 8.18-23:
"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we knowthat the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

I think this is clear enough to assert the sinfulness of the present world system. If not we can call up the record from Genesis: 1.29 & 30 declare that at the first man and beast were not meant to be carnivorous. Further still would begin our investigation of the original creation as opposed to that after the fall of Lucifer.

That is my answer to the refutation that there is no sin in this world (we know do we not that this world is not incorruptible?)

Next, the question of Luke 6 and the Parable of the House built upon a Rock. To answer:

6.47: "Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like."

First of all, no scripture is subject to private interpretations, neither my own, nor yours. Next, we find in vs. 47 "Whosoever cometh to me" comparing this to Matt. 7.24 where the same parable is taught we find: "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them,..." Your emphasis is on doing, the emphasis Christ has put here is on hearing first and then doing.

Note: In neither record is doing put before hearing. These two do not speak of salvation, but of action after salvation. Those hearing and doing are likened to a wise man building upon a rock (Matt.) and in Luke the verb "digged" is used; both signifying action (strong deliberate action even). Because of your emphasis on works you are disregarding the fact that none of this deliberate action is occurring until after the wise man hears the words.

This brings us to a question we must answer: What is hearing?

It is not generic hearing, in this is made the distinction of hearing the sound and understanding that sound. This is shown in scripture at John 12; Acts 9 and Acts 22.

The first, John 12, Yelsew graciously consented our usage of it due to the significance placed upon biblical context.
John 12:
"The people therefore, that stood by,
and heard it, said that it thundered:
others said, an angel spake to him."

What did the people hear? 1. thunder and 2. the voice of an angel. What does scripture say? At vs. 28 we are told this which was heard was the voice of God. Still the people heard either thunder in one group or a voice in another, which they attributed to an angel.

What did Jesus say?
"This voice came not because of me,
but for your sakes."

The same is true of Paul's companions in Acts 9.7 & 22.9.

9.7: "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."

22.9: "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid, but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."

Paul heard and understood the voice and he also saw the person of Christ Jesus. Those with him heard the voice, or saw the light, but saw no man and did not understand the voice.

If we are to take hearing as always understanding there would be a contradiction in scripture here. That perhaps is no major problem to some. I believe it is better to let the word of God be true and for God to be Sovereign such that He determines who hears and understands and who hears and understands not.

(If you prefer a natural application as opposed to biblical, then the same applies. No man hears because he is actively engaged; hearing sound is passive. If some sound is registered as unimportant to you or me, we disregard it only as noise. Only when some sound awakens us and stimulates us, then do we apply importance enough to it to hear and understand it. This is the working of God in salvation. The spirit of man is dead in trespasses and sin; the sound of the voice of God is heard, perhaps a thousand times before, yet at the appointed time, God quickens (makes alive) the dead spirit so that there is an understanding of what is heard.

Another more personal experience:

I am dark complected and my complexion has caused me to be thought a Hispanic on several occassions. The first was during a visit to a Mexican restaurant where I joined a group of Hispanics I knew, who were already there (thus they had already ordered).
The waiter approached our table and stood next to me. Then he began to speak in the Spanish language. I disregarded the sound of his voice, though I definitely heard it, he called to me several times before one of my companions at the table told him I did not understand and relayed to me he wanted to know my request.
I did not respond because I did not understand he was calling me to make my request; but I did hear the sound of his voice. The truth was I was limited by my inability to understand the language and thus could not answer until it was made known to me I was being addressed. In our natural physical life we are the same; I am alive as far as physical function is concerned, yet spiritually I am dead and unable to understand the things of God, even though I may hear them all of my life. Until God opens my ears and guides my understanding I will remain in this condition, simply because I don't realize I am being spoken to. Furthermore, I may realize I am in need, as sitting at the table in the restaurant without my dinner etc, I could not make a request because I could not understand the waiter desired to bring to me those items. So I was destitute in sin, perhaps knowing something was missing, but able to make request for that until my hearing becomes understanding.

Then the question at Luke 6 and Matt. 7 is not one of salvation, but of applying ourselves to a life exhibiting those fruits of salvation, this ability is the result of salvation.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

The fact remains that if Man had not been on the scene, none of that would have taken place.

Satan brought to this earth sin, Introduced it into God's creation through man.

It is Man that the scriptures are all about. Man is God's highest order creation for this world.

The first few chapters of the bible are about the creation and they culminate with the creation of Man, after which God rested. The remainder of the 66 books of the bible are all about man and how God is working to restore man to the former sinless Glory for his own Glory.

Throughout the Bible God reveals himself to man so that man can choose with knowledge how to life life and to live it abundantly. That requires free will! Every aspect of man's life requires free will else man is no better off than the beast in the field. God created man higher than the beasts and expects man to use that which God created within him. One thing that is true of man's attributes, "If you don't use it you lose it"! If you do not exercise your free will, it will be taken from you.

If you do not actively choose Jesus, you passively choose death, for whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish be have everlasting life. He who believeth not is condemned by his own unbelief. Believing is an act of free will!

 

The remainder of the 66 books of the bible are all about man and how God is working to restore man to the former sinless Glory for his own Glory.

Funny, I always thought the bible was about God. Thanks for clearing that up Yelsew.

 

I agree that what dogs do is probably not reckoned as sin, but it wouldn't disappoint me to find out I was wrong and that a dog named Champer will rot in hell for peeing on my stereo when it was sitting on the floor.

 

ROFL!!

Unfortunately, I think that says it all about why our opinions differ with Yelsew's.

 

by your standard, wouldn't this be accomplished against the free will of man?

Bro. Dallas

 

forum leader please delete.

[ February 07, 2003, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Tuor ]