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Is Lucifer Jesus or Satan?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Gina B, Feb 22, 2003.

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  1. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24 Active Member

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    That is a trick question; right? Do you have a Bible?
     
    #21 I Am Blessed 24, Feb 24, 2003
  2. Doc Yankum

    Doc Yankum New Member

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    Good post, Artimaeus. Logical verse by verse answers to the questions raised concerning
    Isaiah 14:12-21.
     
    #22 Doc Yankum, Feb 24, 2003
  3. Charlotte Marcel

    Charlotte Marcel New Member

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    Lucifer

    Meaning: brilliant star, day star, shining one / Hebrew: heylel

    This name appears only once in the Bible (Isa. 14:12). It was a title given to a king of Babylon to express his perceived glory. The KJV and NKJV translate the Hebrew word as "Lucifer," the NIV uses "morning star," and the NRSV uses Day Star."

    Although the prophecy [in Isaiah 14] is directed toward the earthly king of Babylon (Isaiah 14:4), here it goes far beyond him (he could never fall from heaven) to the wicked spirit possessing his body and inspiring his actions. Just as Satan possessed and used the serpent's body in Eden, so he does here with Babylon's king.

    Thus, the names "Lucifer" or "Day Star" have also long been applied to the fallen angel, Satan, the Devil. Lucifer is also referred to as the Light bearer. And a son of God. That may be where the assertion that Jesus and Lucifer are one and the same. But I do not subscribe to this theory.
     
    #23 Charlotte Marcel, Feb 24, 2003
  4. go2church

    go2church Active Member
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    Did Adam have a belly button? And if so where did the lint come from?
    Questions with about as much merit as "Is Lucifer Jesus or Satan?
     
    #24 go2church, Feb 24, 2003
  5. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Yes, I was serious. I did not believe it, but I had argued the position just for debate purposes with somebody and it started making some sense to me and I did begin to question the possibility that Lucifer and Satan were two separate beings. I had argued it was Jesus, and I still didn't believe that, but now do think it may not be Satan. (not Adam either)
    Still studying it.
    If you understand something and I don't, I will ask you because I'd like you to teach me, not so you can make fun of me for not knowing, so don't do it again. Thanks.
    Now, I brought it up on another board, and someone quoted this for me, he got this reply from a professor of Hebrew and former Israeli missionary when he asked who Lucifer was. Take a look.
    *************************************
    >>>All agree that the historic king of Babylon is in view in 14:1-11 as named in verse 4. There is disagreement, however, over whether the "star of the morning" discussed in verses 12-19 is the same as the king in verses 4-11.

    Some believe that this entire passage (14:4-19) applies to the king of Babylon. Later on this king was seen as a type of Antichrist, who in the Great Tribulation will set himself "above every so-called god or object of worship . . . displaying himself as being God" (2 Thess 2:4).

    Others say Isaiah spoke only of the pride and downfall of the king of Babylon (John A. Martin, "Isaiah," in The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Old Testament, pp. 1061-2; Edward J. Young, The Book of Isaiah, New International Commentary on the Old Testament, 440-2), a "man" "who made the earth tremble," "overthrew its cities," took many people prisoner, and yet did not even have a decent burial (Is 14:16-20), for he was "thrust down to Sheol" (14:15).

    Still others suggest that 14:12-15 is a song metaphorically portraying the city of Babylon as a god (Garrett, Angels and the New Spirituality, 36-9).

    And some say the passage speaks of both the human king and Satan, who energized the king (MacArthur, The MacArthur Study Bible, 977).

    The word Lucifer (KJV, NKJV) comes from the Hebrew word hay-lel (this Hebrew word is only used one time in the Hebrew Bible), rendered "day star," "star of the morning," or "morning star." Lucifer ("light bearing," from the Latin lux, "light") was the Latin name for the planet Venus, the brightest object in the pre-dawn sky. Like this bright object in the sky, which supposedly tries to outshine the sun but whose light is extinguished by it, the person in these verses (as some believe) wanted to be dominant above all others but met a downfall.

    Some say Lucifer fell during the gap of time presumed to exist between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

    Others say his fall occurred between Genesis 2 and 3, just before Adam and Eve's fall.

    Others believe that Lucifer became Satan before the creation of the world which is recorded in summary fashion in Genesis 1:1.

    An Outline of Isaiah 14:3-21

    14:3-21 -- A taunt against Babylon
    14:3-8 -- The defeat of the tyrant
    14:9-11 -- The death of the tyrant
    14:12-15 -- The arrogance and fate of the tyrant
    14:16-21 -- A lesson to be learned from the defeat of the tyrant

    I believe it is forced to say that Isaiah 14:12-14 refers to the entrance of sin into the cosmos by Satan's fall. I think it is more likely that Ezek 28:12-19 refers to Satan's fall.

    Some of the church fathers, linking this passage to Luke 10:18 and Rev 12:8-9, took Is 14:12-15 to refer to the fall of Satan described in those places. However, the great expositors of the Reformation were unanimous in arguing that the context here does not support such an interpretation.

    It seems more natural to view this proud tyrant as Sennacherib (705-681). There are interesting parallels between the description of the tyrant in Isaiah 14 and the curse against Sennacherib in 37:21-29. Sennacherib was the king of Assyria AND Babylon since Babylon was a vassal of Assyria from the end of the 10th century.

    If 14:12-15 does refer to a human king, then the language of these verses is hyperbolical. I think that 14:12-17 refer not directly but indirectly to Satan since the pride of the king of Babylon was indeed satanic. When Satan works his evil will through rulers of the world, he reproduces his own wicked qualities in them, so that they become virtual shadows of which he is the substance. Daniel 10:13 and Eph 6:12 show that there are human as well as superhuman agencies in world governments in the satanic world system. All rulers of international significance whose excessive pride and arrogance bring them to ruin under the hand of God's judgment illustrate both the satanic and the Antichrist principles, for these principles are really one. This passage in Isaiah itself seems to be echoed by the Lord Jesus in Luke 10:18, where language applied here to the king of Babylon is used of Satan.

    More about Lucifer

    As I mentioned above, Lucifer was the Latin name for the planet Venus, the brightest object in the sky apart from the sun and moon, appearing sometimes as the evening, sometimes as the morning star. This term is applied tauntingly as a title for the king of Babylon, who in his glory and pomp had set himself among the gods. This name is appropriate, as the civilization of Babylon began in the gray dawn of history, and had strong astrological connections. Babylonians and Assyrians personified the morning star as Belit and Ishtar.

    The entire context surrounding Isaiah 14:12-15 pertains to an unnamed "king of Babylon" (14:4). He has "subdued nations" (14:6), he has "become like" other kings (14:10), he is in the grave where "worms cover" him (14:11), he is referred to as a "man" (14:16-17). At the same time he uses high-flown language as his claims to be divine (14:13-14), a common practice among the kings of Babylon and Assyria, who often considered themselves to be gods worthy of worship (see A Leo Oppenheim, Ancient Mesopotamia, pp. 98-9).

    Beginning in the days of the tower of Babel (Gen 11:1-9) the name Babylon has been applied to political and religious systems opposed to the living God. The king of Babylon in Isaiah 14 embodied satanic power, and he may very well be a prefiguration of the "beast" who will be worshiped (Rev 13:4) by man and will be associated with the "Babylon" of the last days (Rev 17:3-5).

    14:13 reminds us of the Tower of Babel (Gen 11:1-9), though the endeavor to be like God takes us right back to Genesis 3. Here Satan first tried to reproduce in human life his own proud aspirations for equal status with God. In Isaiah 14, it is a strange paradox that nothing makes a being less like God than the urge to be his equal, for he who was God stepped down from the throne of his glory to display to the wondering eyes of men the humility of God (Phil 2:5-8).

    Sources Used

    Gaelelein, Frank. The Expositor's Bible Commentary

    Harrison, R. K. The New Unger's Bible Dictionary

    Lightner, Robert. Angels, Satan, and Demons

    Marshall, I. Howard, A. R. Millard, J. I. Packer, D. J. Wiseman. New Bible Dictionary. Third Edition

    Oswalt, John N. The Book of Isaiah Chapters 1-39. The New International Commentary on the Old Testament

    Walvoord, John and Roy Zuck. The Bible Knowledge Commentary

    Youngblood, Ronald. Themes from Isaiah <<<
     
    #25 Gina B, Feb 24, 2003
  6. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    or How about...

    Does the "beast" in revelation have a Name ?

    Maybe its Lucifer...
     
    #26 Me2, Feb 24, 2003
  7. Charlotte Marcel

    Charlotte Marcel New Member

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    Good post Gina. I would say it was succinct if it weren't for the length.

    Many also ascribe to the theory that Lucifer and Jesus where brothers. But the trinity theory would tend to discredit this.

    There are many names for the devil. Beelzebub, the Lord of the Flies, Lucifer, Satan, the Serpent. Just as there are many names for God. I think that Lucifer and Satan and the Devil are all names for the same being. I find more simularities to the Archangel Michael and Lucifer in their standing prior to the fall.
     
    #27 Charlotte Marcel, Feb 24, 2003
  8. Tentmaker

    Tentmaker <img src=/tentmaker.gif>
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    Lucifer was a name given to the devil because of his exalted position in heaven. However, after his rebellion he is no longer referred to by that name.
     
    #28 Tentmaker, Feb 25, 2003
  9. RaptureReady

    RaptureReady New Member

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    Do you know what blasphemy is?
     
    #29 RaptureReady, Feb 25, 2003
  10. Charlotte Marcel

    Charlotte Marcel New Member

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    Jesus was the only human being that was not born in sin. He was without sin. He was perfect. He was God in the flesh.

    I don't think it is kind to suggest blasphemy of someone who has questions. Questions have answers. The Word of God has answers, and it is not wrong to seek knowledge and understanding of God.

    Charlotte. [​IMG]
     
    #30 Charlotte Marcel, Feb 25, 2003
  11. Heavenly Thunderings

    Heavenly Thunderings New Member

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    My Friends And Brothers In Christ.............

    Do you know what is the meaning of the word "BLASPHEMY" - taking the name of God in vain, etc. Do you know what sin that cannot be forgiven among men? It was written in the Gospel Whatsoever sin against The Son Of Man will be forgiven but the Blasphemy Against The Holy Ghost cannot be forgiven. Think ye Jesus has an evil or unclean spirit? Then ye blaspheme His Holy Spirit. What the Pharisees said to Jesus - He is the of prince BeelZebub - must be The same accusation on The Topic Above . Do you have a Bible?

    Think ye We shall all be judged before his presence. Think on this Not all of us will stand before THE Judgment Seat Of Christ. Only a few - Them that Are Worthy, Them that Hold The Truth Till The End, Them That Endure The Faith, Them That Waste Their Live For Him, Them That Believe And Willing To Die For Him, Them That Hold The Promises Of God. Remember that now will God judge the whole world beginning from the House Of God (in the Book of Peter). Surely there is an assurance of Salvation to them that believe, of course, in contradiction Flier Popup vincent@baptistmail.com .

    In the Verses Of Ezekiel 28 Tyrus thinketh in his Heart He is God when He is Not. I think that Lucifer in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28:12-19 that perfect in Beauty and Wisdom must have entered into the Heart of That MAN. Remember Lucifer when he exalted His Name in His Pride And Was Found In Transgression Before God --There was Violence, and that WickedNess Darkened His HEart. He was Different and Incomparable wth Jesus - in MeekNess and Righteousness - did Jesus Deliver the Gospel to everyone without coersion neither force nor violence.Read your Bible always.

    My Friends and Brothers in Christ HEar the exhortation Today.

    From a Concerned Citizen,
    Having That Hope In Christ.
    [ vincent@baptistmail.com ]
     
    #31 Heavenly Thunderings, Feb 25, 2003
  12. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Thank you for your post vincent, and welcome to the board! You might want to stop in at the welcome forum and introduce yourself. [​IMG]
    Just so you know, I was asking who Lucifer was. Yes, I do have a bible. No, I do not understand everything it says. For me to ask who someone is is not implying or stating blasphemy, it is questioning who a passage is speaking of. If I don't ask I won't know, right?
    Gina
     
    #32 Gina B, Feb 25, 2003
  13. Graceforever

    Graceforever New Member

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    Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
     
    #33 Graceforever, Feb 26, 2003
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Gina: "Is Lucifer Jesus or Satan?"

    Neither.

    Gina: "Where in the bible does it ever say Lucifer is Satan?"

    Nowhere. This is an assumption.
    It appears that this assumption is mainly
    made by people who read the KJV1769 or KJV1863
    and not the KJV1611.

    Isaiah 14:12 (KJV1763):
    How are thou fallen from heaven,
    O Lucifer, son of the morning! how
    art thou cut down to the ground,
    which didst weaken the nations!

    Ifaiah XIIII:12 (KJV1611):
    How art thou fallen from heauen,
    ||O Lucifer, sonne of the morning? how
    art thou cut downe to the ground,
    which didst weaken the nations?

    Sidenote: ||O daystarre.

    Ifaiah XIIII:12 (alternate KJV1611):
    How art thou fallen from heauen,
    O daystarre, sonne of the morning? how
    art thou cut downe to the grounnd,
    which didst weaken the nations?

    Note the original KJV1611 has question marks
    indicating retorical questions.
    and the modern version, the KJV1763
    has explanation marks (the original language
    doesn't have either).

    Note that the translators of the KJV1611
    had the second best reading as not a name
    at all, but a description.

    The day star is Venus when it follows
    the sun setting or when it preceedes
    the sun rising; the morning star is Venus
    when when it preceeds the sun rising.

    Reading the context, we see that the verse
    must be speaking of the King of Babylon (v4)
    who is being taunted in hell by other
    kings (v9). As Artimaeus said, Lucifer
    could well be a type of Satan, but Lucifer
    is not Satan nor is Lucifer Jesus.

    Revelation 22:16 says Jesus is the "bright
    Morning Star", but Jesus is not Lucifer.
     
    #34 Ed Edwards, Feb 27, 2003
  15. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Where did you get a copy of the original 1611 version?
    Are you saying that's what everyone should read?
    Not arguing, just asking. [​IMG]
    Gina
     
    #35 Gina B, Feb 27, 2003
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Ask your book store for
    THE HOLY BIBLE 1611 EDITION
    from Thomas Nelson Publishers.

    There are versions of the Bible
    in English other than the King
    James Version. Most modern
    versions don't use "Lucifer" in
    Isaiah 14:12.
     
    #36 Ed Edwards, Feb 27, 2003
  17. Wisdom Seeker

    Wisdom Seeker New Member

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    Actually Jesus was not the only human being that was not born in sin, He was the second human being created without sin. He is considered the second Adam. The first Adam was also created without sin, but he did not stay sinless.

    Laurenda
     
    #37 Wisdom Seeker, Feb 28, 2003
  18. Charlotte Marcel

    Charlotte Marcel New Member

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    Laurenda, Your right. ;)

    God bless you,
    Charlotte
     
    #38 Charlotte Marcel, Feb 28, 2003
  19. Steve K.

    Steve K. Guest

    Good grief Ed!
     
    #39 Steve K., Feb 28, 2003
  20. David Ekstrom

    David Ekstrom New Member

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    rsr citation of the Net Bible is right on the money. It's a reference to the King of Babylon. Pagan kings often ascribed to themselves divine titles.
    It certainly doesn't refer to Jesus, as somehow as already pointed out the reference to iniquity being found in him.
    Many Christians have seen in this passage and in Is. 14 a secondary reference to Satan. I don't think neither passage refers to Satan.
    But if not, then we are left with somewhat of a mystery. If neither Is. 14 nor the Ezek. passage refer to Satan, we have no account of Satan's origin nor of his fall.
    We can infer with certainty that Satan was created by God. We can also be certain that he was created good. We also know that he fell from his original state of righteousness and is doomed forever. This fall must have occurred before Gen. 3.
    We must remember though that the Bible wasn't written to satisfy our curiosity. Think of how relatively little the Bible actually speaks of angels and demons, considering how many and how powerful they are.
    So what's the point of the Ezek. passage? Don't be intimidated, people of God, by powerful, puffed up despots. You are the humble, meek, poor and it doesn't seem fair that in this world the wicked prosper. Kind of like Ps. 72. God's will will be done.
     
    #40 David Ekstrom, Feb 28, 2003
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