What's wrong with Catholicism?

Nice job, caretaker.

 

Don't you just love how the Catholic Church makes up its own doctrines and most of its members follow right along without question?

 

Transubstantiation of the elements into the Literal Body and Blood of Christ.

Roman Catholicism's doctrine of "transubstantiation" -- the bread and wine actually turning into God, and therefore "adorable" (Holy Souls Book, p. 221) -- is based on Jesus' statement, "This is My Body."
However, in John 10 Jesus said, "I am the Door..." and elsewhere he spoke figuratively ("I am the Light," etc.) in the same way. He did not mean the door was literally being transformed into him/God, or that we should worship a door.

The true purpose of the celebration of the Lord's Supper is threefold:
1) fellowship, 1 Corinthians 10:16;
2) remembrance, 1 Corinthians 11:24; and
3) proclamation of His death till he comes again, 1 Corinthians 11:26.

Acts 20:7-11 sheds light on the informality of first-century "church services."
1 Corinthians 10:17 says we are the bread.
1 Corinthians 10:16, 17 indicates it is still bread, not God, even after the words were spoken.
1 Corinthians 10:18 partakers
1 Corinthians 11:25 "this cup is ..." (signifies)
John 6:27 decomposes

In only Matthew and Mark is it recorded that Jesus said both "This is my body" and "This is my blood." No account is given whatsoever of the Lord's Supper in John. Luke's account speaks only of the bread being claimed as symbolic (the same is true of 1 Corinthians.) And Paul clearly states that he personally derived understanding/revelation of the supper from the Lord Himself.

Leviticus 12:23 The Levitical laws clearly show that drinking the blood of anything is abominable in God's sight.

1 Corinthians 10:17 We partake of the bread, etc., not flesh. And the body spoken of is the church, not Jesus' physical body.
John 6:47, 48, 53 This must be symbolic, not literal, because otherwise it says we can't have life unless we receive or take the "host" (blessed bread).

John 6:54, 55, etc. In the same way that the above would eliminate salvation to those never receiving the "Holy Eucharist," if translated literally, assurance of salvation would be possible simply for eating the "host" once (if Catholicism's literal interpretation were applied here)!

Having once recognized these truths, we must depart from the partaking of pagan sacrifices. "Are not those who eat the sacrifices partners of the altar?" 1 Corinthians 10:18
Jesus simply meant that he alone should be our sustenance. John 6:48, 55
The next verses show the disciples' confusion -- and Jesus' explanation. John 6:63
John 6:33, 35, 41 "I am the Bread ..." NOT the Bread is me!
Jesus said He would not again drink of the fruit of the VINE until the kingdom, indicating the wine does not become his blood, but is just plain old wine.
..

Thomas Aquinas used the philosophy of Aristotle to support his doctrine of transubstantiation. This doctrine having its rudiments in the world and not in Christ was brought about to spoil, that is rob men of their salvation. It teaches men to worship and bow before a piece of bread and call it “God”. This is idolatry and a tradition of men. It’s interesting that in Matthew 15, Jesus, knowing all things beforehand, exposed the false doctrine of transubstantiation in the same breath he was condemning man‘s traditions.

Jesus clearly taught that the god of Roman Catholicism is cast out in the draught! That’s right all you Catholics out there that love to take the literal meaning...Jesus literally said that “whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?” Does the Roman eucharist enter in at the mouth? Does it go into the belly? Then, according to Jesus, the Roman eucharist or the Roman god is cast out into the draught. Jesus, who cannot lie, made it clear when He literally condemned Rome’s tradition of literally eating a god.

..

A servant of Christ,
Drew

 

Caretake, you do not mind if use your post for teaching purposes. It was to the point.

IN Christ
DWD

 

Caretaker,
Good stuff! We also should remember that in response to the Jews complaining, "This is a hard saying..." (John 6:60), Jesus said: "It is the SPIRIT who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I that speak to you are SPIRIT and they are life." (John 6:63) This pretty much sums up the nature of what Jesus had been telling them. The Jews were hung-up on the idea of eating literal bread and literal flesh. Jesus told them that the "flesh profits nothing". Jesus is indeed the SPIRITUAL bread come down from heaven. Jesus is not PHYSICAL bread, nor is literal physical BREAD the literal physical FLESH of Jesus.

 

The question arises, what are we to understand about what the RCC teaches and believes?

The actual recorded teachings of the Catecshism and the Councils, or the spin put on those teachings by devotees such as Brian.

Brian is less than up to speed on Catholic teachings.
Rather than debate his opinions, Brother Curtis, debate the teachings of the Romanists.

Direct quotes such as those given by caretaker will bring Brians spin to a screeching halt.

MR

 

There is no doubt that the Catholic Church is not and never was a "Christian" church because of the 60 or 70 areas in which they do not square with the Bible. They are, in every sense, a cult.

The biggest danger is the fact that there are millions of Catholics all over the world who believe their good works and membership in that church will get them into heaven. If they are in the Catholic Church and they have trusted Jesus as their Personal Saviour and are striving for Christ-likeness, they will also have a desire to get out of that church and to reach the lost Catholics from a position outside of that church.

Many of them have been blind-sided by fear and tradition.

We really need to pray for them as we do for all of the lost, that God would speak to them and give them a sincere desire to be "separated".

Alex

 

BrianT:

My fellow Canadian, you mention in your last post that you are just trying to learn. That is a good thing. All many of us ever have to base our assumptions on is what we hear, what we read or what we are told.

Surely we are living in a time when believers need to keep their eyes and ears wide open. Everything should be measured against scripture, wouldn't you agree.

It is well know and welll documented that the Catholic Church is at odds with God's Word in at least 62 areas as outined in an earlier post on this thread.

Fortunately, for us bible believers we can add to that list, what we see, what history has proven and what scripture reveals to us in Rev 17 and 18 where the doom of Babylon is predicted.

The clearest picture is given to the reader in the pure word, the KJV. The modern "versions" coming out of the corrupt Westcott and Hort Greek Text tend to water the message down somewhat as they do in so many other areas of scripture, so as to attempt to create division, arguments and bunny trails for some of us to follow.

Revelation 17 and 18 in the KJV is a vivid description of the Church of Rome, described as a harlot, complete with her elegant clothing and jewellery (Ch 17: 4 - 6), she is very wealthy and attractive to those who love the world.

Her actions, however, are filthy and corrupt and an abomination to God.

She also has a close relationship with the Antichrist (the beast of Rev 13). She sits upon this beast and has an intimate relationship of influence and control over it.

The harlot's mystery name is BABYLON THE GREAT, MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH (Ch 17: 5.

This harlot is a clear picture of the modern Catholic Church and these chapters are a very clear and vivid warning that the harlot will do what ancient Babylon did in the past. That is (1) opress the true believers (2) propagate a false religious system. Much of the world's idolotry can be trace directly back to the Church of Babylon (Rome).

The harlot of Rev 17 and 18 has killed many of God's saints and Christian Martyrs throughout the ages and she will do so again during the tribulation (Ch 13:3 and 17:7). A very good read is Foxes Book of Martyrs.

History has proven and scripture has a clear warning as to what we can expect from this false religious system. Millions of well meaning Catholics, and this is possibly the greatest tragedy of all time, believe their good works and their false religious system will get them into heaven. They are and have been for centuries, been deceived by the author of lies, Satan himself.

Unfortunately, the message of the church of Babylon and Rome does not square with scripture.
We must warn them at every opportunity.

For those within the Catholic Church who have trusted Jesus Christ as Personal Saviour they need to get out of her and to be separated.

That, my friend and brother, is the bottom line with the RCC.

They seem to be making more noises that sound like our findamental, evangelical bible churches today, than ever before but don't let this suck you in. They still have allegiances to Rome, they still pray to Mary and other dead people, they still confess their sins to other men, not to God and much, much more.

God bless you as you seek truth. If you ask I know the God of the Bible will lead you to it and will make you thirst for it.

Alex

 

Catholic Catechism

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268


824 United with Christ, the Church is sanctified by him; through him and with him she becomes sanctifying. "All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God."292 It is in the Church that "the fullness of the means of salvation"293 has been deposited. It is in her that "by the grace of God we acquire holiness."294


"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336


882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403
883 "The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, as its head." As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff."404

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The Greek word used for rock (petra) is played against Peter (petros). Some use this passage to teach that Peter was the foundation stone of the church, that he had a primacy among the apostles, and that he became bishop of Rome. The verse will scarcely bear the first of these propositions, and certainly none of the others. Peter may be meant by the rock, but he was not the exclusive foundation.
The twelve-fold foundation of the apostles of the church:

Ephesians 2:
19
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Rev. 21:
14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

This seems borne out by the fact that the words spoken unto Peter in Matt. 16:18, were spoken to all of the disciples in Matt. 18:

Matt. 18:
18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

The rock or foundation of the church is the confession (ultimately the doctrine) of the apostles, which became normative for the true church.

The word church (Greek ekklesia), means literally “ a chosen or called out assembly”. Thus the use of the word as a technical term for an assembly or group of believers in Christ was quite natural. It was not viewed as an external organization, denomination, or hierarchical system. The New Testament Church is a local autonomous congregation or an assembly which is a church in and of itself. John writes to 7 churches, in His Revelation, not to one.

Scofield commentary:

16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Peter
There is the Greek a play upon the words, "thou art Peter petros-- literally 'a little rock', and upon this rock Petra I will build my church." He does not promise to build His church upon Peter, but upon Himself, as Peter is careful to tell us

(1 Peter 2:4-9)
2:4 Coming to Him, a living stone--rejected by men but chosen and valuable to God--
2:5 you yourselves, as living stones, are being built into a spiritual house for a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
2:6 For it stands in Scripture: Look! I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and valuable cornerstone, and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame!
2:7 So the honor is for you who believe; but for the unbelieving, The stone that the builders rejected-- this One has become the cornerstone, and
2:8 A stone that causes men to stumble, and a rock that trips them up. They stumble by disobeying the message; they were destined for this.
2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His possession, so that you may proclaim the praises of the One who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

church:

2 (Greek - ajpovllumi (ek=="out of," kaleo =="to call"), an assembly of called out ones). The word is used of any assembly; the word itself implies no more, as, e.g., the town-meeting at Ephesus Acts 19:39 and Israel, called out of Egypt and assembled in the wilderness Acts 7:38. Israel was a true "church," but not in any sense the N.T. church--the only point of similarity being that both were "called out" and by the same God. All else is contrast.

Following are several of the doctrinal statements made on Justification at the council of Trent. After each Canon are scriptures that contradict that Canon.

Finally, you will see the word "anathema" used many times by the Council. This means that those who disagree with the doctrines of this Council are cursed. In Gal. 1:8-9, the word "anathema" is used. The curse must come from God. Therefore, we conclude that according to Roman Catholicism, anyone who disagrees with the following Canons are cursed of God. The Roman Catholic church excommunicates those under anathema. In other words, excommunication means being outside the Christian church. Being outside the church means you are not saved.

In spite of what Catholicism states, the Bible speaks differently. Following each Canon is a list of appropriate scriptures countering the Catholic position.

1. CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20).
B. "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24).
C. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
D. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
E. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
F. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8).
G. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5).

2. CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"
.
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" John 1:12).
A. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
B. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
C. "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself" (Heb. 7:25-27).
D. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1:12).

3. Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."
.
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
A. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).

4. Canon 23: "lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,- except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema."
.
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).
A. "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).
B. "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28).
C. "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 5:21).
D. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1 John 2:19).
E. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13).
·
Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."

. "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:1-3).
A. "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law" (Gal. 5:1-3).
·
Canon 30: "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."

. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
A. "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Col. 2:13-14).

· Canon 33: "If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.
. This council declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned.


While the apostasy of Rome wrested power for the papacy, and established the monarchy falsely using Peter's name, there was a group of believers following the only true head of the Church, the Lord Jesus Christ. These were the Baptists, and prior to the reformation, horrificly persecuted by Rome's bloody corruption.

A servant of Christ,
Drew

 

Brian, you say that you are impressed with the RCC teaching about the eucharist.
Are you also impressed with their teachings that one can merit eternal life for oneself and for others?
Or that by baptism is necessary for salvation?
{By inference, faith alone in Jesus is insufficient.}

Or that Moslems, who reject Jesus as saviour are included with them in the plan of salvation?

You can find some truth in any church, but that does not make that church Christian.

Why anyone would support a false church because they agree with some of its teachings, while ignoring the false and anti-Biblical portions is a mystery to me.

Unless they are actually members of that false church.

MR

 

The Catholic teaching is not Bibical. It leads people to Hell. The pope must get saved or die and go to hell. He is a lost sinner as anyone else who is not saved. There doctrine is false.

 

Quote from BrianT

"It was not until I stopped listening to anti-Catholic arguments and started actually reading "actual recorded teachings of the Catechism and the Councils" that I started to see the anti-Catholic banter is usually just strawmen."

Thats what most Catholics say about anyone who opposes their beliefs. Since they hold what they believe to be true, do you honestly think they are going to ackowledge anyones argument against it as a correct understanding? Of course not. They openly deny that they worship Mary and pray to her. It doesn't matter what they call it or how they reason it. In God's eyes they doing exactly that. Open your eyes brother. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Catholicism is counterfeit Christianity. It looks, smells, and tastes like the real thing...but its not! Just remember that the next time you see a statue of Mary somewhere its a product of Catholic idol worship.

 

"By their fruit you will know them" said Christ

 

Exactly! And how many head over heels in love with Jesus Christ Catholics have you run across?

I actually did meet a young Catholic man several months ago who was on fire for Jesus. Gave me real encouragement. He said there was a small but growing movement among the younger generation within the Catholic church to "turn the corner." Time will tell. Let's pray for and witness to them rather than beleaguer them!

 

Brian, I suggest you get a catechism and read it.
You will then see what they are saying.

In the matter or earning salvation for oneself and for others, see 2010.

For Moslems, see 841.


========
[Brian]
Tell me, what makes a Church "Christian" in the first place? Does Rom 10:9-10 have a "unless you are a Catholic" disclaimer in it that I don't know about?
========

Yes. The same disclaimer that excludes Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, who believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
The rest of their teachings deny the Jesus of the Bible and deny that faith in Him is sufficient, just like the Catholics.

When you have studied what the Catholics say about themselves, "at some point in the future",
then maybe you will be able to carry on a plausible debate about it.
I get the feeling that whatever you learn they believe, you will also believe.
If you don't already know it.
Otherwise, if you're going to defend it, learn it.

You should do this and start another thread "sometime in the future."

MR