REVELATIONS: QUESTIONS

Just to balance DD's earlier comments:

pretribulational premillenialist -- a pessimist in regards to the effectiveness of the Church, i.e. it is doomed to complete failure

postmillenialist -- an optimist in regards to the effectiveness of the Church, i.e. it will take over the world

amillenialist -- in regards to the effectiveness of the Church, hmmm. we'll see ...

full-preterist -- all the important stuff about the Church happened in the first century

partial-pretrist -- the most important stuff about the Church happened in the first century, but stay tuned for more to come.

That about sums it up,

Tim

 

Once an agnostic asked me how long i'd
keep saying that "Jesus will return soon".
I told him 365,033AD.

2 Peter 3:8 (nKJV):

But, beloved, do not forget this
one thing, that with the Lord one day
is as a thousand years, and a thousand
years as one day.

Jesus will come back this year (i.e. soon).
If he doesn't return by 365,033AD i'll
admit i was wrong, and that the Holy Bible,
God's Holy Written Word is in error.
Until then, i'll be assuming that the
Holy Bible is without error.

The milage of others may vary.

 

Tim: "pretribulational premillenialist -- a pessimist in regards
to the effectiveness of the Church, i.e.
it is doomed to complete failure"

Tee Hee brother Tim, you are such a joker.
The pretribulation rapture is the Church's Victory Day.
The pretriublation rapture is followed by the marriage
supper of the Lamb in heaven (while hell comes to
unregenerated earth).

Remember salvation consists of three parts:

1. justification - Jesus saving us from our past sins
2. scantification - Jesus saviing us from our present sins
2. glorification - Jesus saving, final chapter, in the future.
The pretribulation rapture will be our glorification day,
when our salvation, already sure will be realized.

What a hoot to call it pessimistic.

 

Jesus will come back this year (i.e. soon).If he doesn't return by 365,033AD i'll admit i was wrong, and that the Holy Bible,God's Holy Written Word is in error.Until then, i'll be assuming that the Holy Bible is without error.

So are we to take all time statements with a grain of salt? Was this just God's way of putting one over on us? You seem to have a warped view of God. Was He not able to communicate time with His creation?

Tee Hee brother Tim, you are such a joker.The pretribulation rapture is the Church's Victory Day.The pretriublation rapture is followed by the marriagesupper of the Lamb in heaven (while hell comes to unregenerated earth).

The Church fails miserably under the pre-trib Mill view. The church is the salt and light of the earth yet it continues to get worse according to futurist. Preterism says the Kingdom(church) continues to grow and expand indefinetly. We are in the early stages of the Kingdom, not the end. God does not have to come and rescue us out because the church failed to make a difference. According to you Satan wins the battle on earth and defeats the church(bride of Christ). The Church must not have much power.

 

Ed,

It is pessimistic regarding the effectiveness of the church (as I previously stated)--not about our ultimate destiny.

Tim

 

Grasshopper: "According to you Satan wins the battle on earth and defeats the church(bride of Christ)."

Don't think that is what i said or implied.

What i did say:
"The pretriublation rapture is followed by the marriage
supper of the Lamb in heaven (while hell comes to
unregenerated earth)."

This is exactly the opposite of what you
said i said. I said that when Jesus comes
and takes the Church out of the world,
that all hell breaks out on earth.
Doesn't sound to me like "Satan ... defeats
the Church". Sounds like Jesus wins -
look in the back of the Book -- Jesus wins!!!



Grasshopper: "God does not have to come and rescue us out because the church failed to make a difference."

Exactly so, Brother Grasshopper!
God comes not because we need to be rescued
but because it is part of his eternal
plan for the redemption of a maximum
number of mankind.

 

Tim, that is completely false.

The pretribs I know (including myself), believe that the church has a purpose and that Christ will rapture them when the purpose is complete.

The church will triumph and overcome, not fail.

 

Amen, Brother Daniel David -- Preach it!

 

Every time i try to reject the pre-trib pre-mil position i realize there is so much that they say is either coming to pass or seen on the distant horizon.

 

Ed Edwards,
2 Peter 3:8,9 was a reply to the issue of the scoffers in v.3,4, which said:3) First of all, you must understand that in the last days(see Heb. 1:1,2;Acts 2:16,17;Jam.5:3;1Pet.1:5,20;1Jo.2:18;Jude 17,18 for further understanding on WHEN the "Last Days" were) scoffers will come, scoffing and following their evil desires. 4) They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation"(2 Pet.3:3,4). One thing to notice here is in general they were expecting things to happen soon. Why? Because they were told so by our Lord and his Apostles. But WHEN they asked? God's answer was that from the creation of the world and since the time of the flood to them was a long time, but to God it was like a day. So, although time was insignificant to God they needed to be patient, because God was not slow concerning his promises. It would come as He had promised. If we are to take 2Peter 3:8 as the catch all passage regarding biblical time, then, as ambiguous as this verse could then be, we could elasticise this to numerous meanings. For instance: In Revelation could the 1000 year reign really be a day? Was Jesus dead for 3 days or 3000 years? Could Jesus have been in the wilderness to be tempted by the devil for 40,000 years or 40 days. I know the real answer to these, but when are we to apply the 2Pet.3:8 equation? Is it up to us to determine? Hardly not! Injecting our meanings and feelings are what has a lot of things messed up now. I believe that God knows how to tell time. The bible was written to man, not to spiritual beings. So when God addresses us in his Word regarding time it is our time, unless HE states otherwise. When Paul told Timothy that he hoped to come visit him soon, I can feel assured that he did not mean years or thousands of years. I just wish more christians could get a grip on the meaning of 2Pet.3:8 and time references in the bible in general, for it would go a long way into getting a good understanding of his word. Go with God!

 

The tribulation period begins with the two witnesses and after they have been killed and raised again that is when the beginning of the last 3 1/2 years begins there is your 7 year tribulation....

Revelation chapter 11 is the first 3 1/2 years and Revelation Chapter 13 is the last 3 1/2 years

Revelation Chapter 11

1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation chapter 13

1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. 11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

 

*****bump******

 

Ah, the two witnesses. In my own view, these are, in fact the scriptures. (Their descriptive signs lead to Moses and Elijah; Moses is equated with the law, Elijah with the prophets; the law and the prophets are the Hebrew Scriptures.)

They are throughout the history from the time of Christ testifying about Jesus until they are "slain". Their "slaying" represents the fact that men no longer are awed by or impressed by the Bible -

That their bodies are in Jerusalem has been fullfilled by seeing the dead sea scrolls kept in the museum at Jerusalem.

That they are resurrected and live again means that just before the final coming of Christ there will be some kind of event or happening or movement or whatever that will usher in a renewed faith in the Bible as showing us Jesus as our salvation.

 

Paul of Eugene: "Ah, the two witnesses. In my own view,
these are, in fact the scriptures."

And the symbol of them being in sackcloth means?
My scriptures are all dressed up in leather
(like an American biker )

1 Peter 1:5 speaks of the "last time" (nKJV).
1 Peter 1:20 speaks of the "last times" (nKJV)>
You, Eschatologist (the poster) seem to equate these
two with the "last days" of Acts 2:17.

I believe the last days began on the Day of Pentacost
33AD and have been going on for 1,970 years
or for 1.97 God days (See 2 Peter 3:8)

To believe the last days that started in Acts 2:17
have ended, leaves some hard 'xplainin'
of Revelation 20-22 to be done.
When did the Millinnium stop?

 

Hi Ed! Yes, I'd pretty much go along with that, except I don't view the 1,970 years as being 1.97 God days. Instead, I take a looser approach for the Christian era, it is the millenial period of Revelation, said to last for a "thousand" years, and the symbolism of Satan being imprisoned for these thousand years means he is prevented from doing some things he likes to normally do and also the gospel is being proclaimed . .

So just before the return of christ, we're going to see (a) The two witnesses, dead in the streets, come to life, that is, the scriptures will again be believed, and (b) Satan loosed for a while.

I fear we are doomed to live in interesting times.

As for the "latter days", some might quail at the thought of almost 2000 years being called by such a phrase, but as you might have noticed I'm a theistic evolutionist so I realize the earth is 4.5 billion years old and the time since the day of Pentecost is, literally just a few days by comparison.

 

It amazes me to read a debate (argument?) over eschatological theology. How many years has this issue been discussed? (How long has pretrib/premill been around - yet another debate!)

One thing is obvious - people (those that are still in their un-glorified bodies) still show the work of Satan - - - PRIDE. What ever happened to a teachable spirit? It is obvious that there are difficulties in ALL end times view points (unless your pride has you as the one with all the answers).

 

Seems to me the hard 'xplainin his how you get "last days" to mean 2000 years and counting. I'll ask again, are we to take all time-statements in the NT and throw them out the window or only those dealing with eschatology that doesn't fit your view?

You mean 1 day don't you? Or do you mean 1000 this time?
You see, that game works two ways.

 

Ed Edwards,
If one really looks into the echatalogical statements closely you will see how different authors use different terminology for the same events. For instance, I believe that the terms 'end of the age' and 'last days' and 'last time' are interchangeable, meaning the end or last of the Mosaic age. The term 'last hour'(1Jo.2:18) was at the very end of this age or era. You can use all the futile attempts you want to explain away these important covenant changing time events but the facts(truth) speaks for itself. Peter says that Joels prophesy had been fulfilled before all those witnesses, they were in the 'last days'(Acts 2:17)! James told his audience that they were hording their wealth in the 'last days'(Jam.5:3). The Hebrews writer tells us that HIS time and the TIME OF JESUS was the last days(Heb.1:2). Peter once again says, "First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires"(2Pet.3:3). Jude confirmed that this was already happening at the time he wrote(Jude 17,18). This time did not start at Pentecost as someome earlier had subscribed, but while Jesus walked the earth and spoke his word. Peter said, "The end of ALL things is near"(1Pet.4:7). Not some things, but ALL things! What end was near? The Hebrews writer states: "Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he HAS appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself"(Heb.9:26). This is the same 'end of the age' as spoked by Jesus to his apostles(Matt.24:3) that would happen in their generation(Matt.24:34) with the destruction of the jewish temple and the ending of the Mosaic covenant. Yet somehow I know that you believe that Matthew 24:34 meant some future generation far removed from Jesus, whenever, but the greek and scriptual evidence will not support this theory. Furthermore is this 1.97 "God days" as you stated also your answer to the 1000 years in Revelation? Is this time in your opinion literal or figurative?
What Paul of Eugene posits does not seem logical as well. I need a big rubber band for this one, to stretch the 'last days' from Pentecost to our own time now! That would make these New Testament writers in error by telling them to get ready and be prepared, for the consumation of the age was upon them, and that they were in the 'last days' and it was THEN that they were in the 'last hour'. Further what does it mean when you say, "Satan being imprisoned for these thousand years(one day?) means he is prevented from doing some things he likes to do..." when the scriptures tell us, "The God of peace will SOON CRUSH Satan under your feet"(Rom.16:20). This greek word for CRUSH means to crush completely, shatter. Did Christ only have a partial victory? Were the writer in err? I know that some some things are symbolic and some things literal, this is what studing eschatology is all about-- getting to the root of the understanding. Believe me, I do not have all the answers, but I am pushing hard in the attempt to understand. Day by day, year by year I continue to learn. I wish we all could come to agreement in our understanding. Yet I know this is unlikely. I just want to air out that there are other veiws, which might deserve to be examine more closely, with an open mind of course. Go with God!

 

Very good.

Let go back and see when Genisis says the "last days" will be.

Genesis 49

1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said: gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the latter days .
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, Nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, Until Shiloh come : And unto him shall the obedience of the peoples be.

Looks like they started with Jesus.

Lets see, that would equate to about 2 and a half centuries right Ed?

 

Jensen: "One thing is obvious - people (those that are still
in their un-glorified bodies) still show the work of
Satan - - - PRIDE. What ever happened to a teachable spirit? "

Interesting, you have to be directing your comment at me.
Some believe that Satan is bound
and can't influence us -- they can't follow your logic.
I, being the only one who can follow your logic -- it is directed at me
Well, as soon as i start out logic-ing the error eschatologists,
i get tagged with the PRIDE tag. Sorry, i don't play that game.
It is very prideful of a person to play the PRIDE tag

Grasshopper: "Seems to me the hard 'xplainin his how you
get "last days" to mean 2000 years and counting.
I'll ask again, are we to take all time-statements in
the NT and throw them out the window or only those dealing
with eschatology that doesn't fit your view?"

Takes one to know one
I suppose by your "view" that the 1,000 years have streched out
to 1970? Anyway, it seems obvious that to GOD it is one day,
to humans it is 1,000 years -- always, doesn't depend upon
viewpoint or saving one's lame eschatology (the principle).

Eschatologist: "Is this time in your opinion literal or figurative?"

Yes, well both. Reminds me of a joke:


4yr old: Mommy is God a daddy or a mommy?
Mother: Neither, well, er uh, both.
4yr old: Mommy is God black or white?
Mother: Neither, well, er uh, both.
4ur old, with the little light about the head shining
brightly: "Ah, i see -- like Michael Jackson

Satan is alive & on the earth. You can see him:
- in the 44 Million Americans aborted
- in the 1,000s of boyish "priest" victims that grow up
to be maladjusted adults
- in the broken pelvic bones of raped babies.
Satan is alive & on the earth.