News: CHRISTIAN LEADERS SAY MIDEAST 'ROADMAP' COULD LEAD TO DISASTER

The Promise, the Abrahamic Promise, AND the land, was given by Almighty God to Abraham through the line of Isaac and Jacob (Hebrew People who made up the Nation of Israel), NOT through the Ishmael line.

The nation we call the State of Israel today has nothing to do with the OT nation of Israel. That Israel is long gone and its people scatterred (most ethnic Jews today live in the United States). The State of Israel that exists today was artificially created and was given the name of the OT name. But that does not equate to its inhabitants being given the same biblical promises. Don't forget, according to conservative Baptist thought, the Jews believe in a false god, since they deny Christ.

If you believe in the OT Abrahamic covanent of Isaac and future nations, you must also believe what the Bible says about Ishmael: And the angel of the LORD said unto (Hagar), I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.... Behold, thou [art] with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael (in Hebrew, "God listens"); because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.

Abraham's sons, Isaac and Ishmael, remained close throught the biblical account. They both were present when Abraham died: And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah. Ishmel even gets his own geneology in the Bible, and his death is recorded and is nearly identical to Abraham's death.

As for me, I believe that neither the Jews nor Muslims have any existing covanent with God today. The only covanents today are those withing the Kingdom of Christ, and his kingdom is "not of this world". In other words, Jesus doesn't get involved in our political squabbles. As far as the Israel/Palestine issue, the children of Abraham created the problem. Let the children of Abraham solve the problem.

 

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
IF YOU ARE NOT IN CHRIST YOU ARE NOT ABRAHAMS'S SEED AND YOU HAVE KNOW INHERITANCE ACCORDING TO PAUL IN GALATIANS 3&4.

 

43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
JOSHUA 21

 

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
IF YOU ARE NOT IN CHRIST YOU ARE NOT ABRAHAMS'S SEED AND YOU HAVE KNOW INHERITANCE ACCORDING TO PAUL IN GALATIANS 3&4.
Agreed. Jews are not in Christ, and therefore have no such inhieritance.

 

That dog won't hunt. If that was true, we premills, pre-tribs would be pushing for a Road Map (rather than fighting against it), so the day would hasten when we would be raptured. Because we believe we will be raptured and THEN, the Anti-Christ will set up the Road Map for Peace and then 3-1/2 years later will turn on Israel. So, that little theory is blown out of the water, unless we want to believe GW is the Anti-Christ - NOT!

Confusion exists over the spiritual application and the physical application of the Abrahamic Covenant when people choose to believe in that doctrine conceived in the pit of hell - Replacement Theology (the Church replacing the Nation of Israel).

Johnv, the Abrahamic Covenant was given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Yes, God gave land to Ishmael, but the Land of Canaan was given through Isaac, as well as the Promise of the Redeemer.

Deut. 30:1-10:

1. Israel's dispersion for disobedience (vs. 1). Though Israel is a nation today, more Jews live in New York City than in the land of Palestine. The bulk of the Jews on earth are still scattered and those in Israel do not possess all the land promised to them.

2. Their (foreknown) repentance while dispersed (vs. 2). This is during the Tribulation.

3. The return of the Lord (vs. 3). Christ will personally regather them after the Tribulation.

4. The restoration of all their land (vs. 5). Christ will give them the entire land grant promised to Abraham.

5. Their national conversion (vs. 6). All Israel will be saved (nationally) in a day (Rom. 11:26).

6. The judgment of their enemies and oppressors (vs. 7). The judgment of the nations (Matt. 25).

7. Their national blessing and prosperity (vs. 9).

This covenant comes into effect at the end of the Tribulation period when the remaining Jews see the return of the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him as their Messiah. They will nationally repent and mourn for their sin of rejecting Him and admit before all their acceptance of Him as King.

God will then, in Christ, forgive them and bless them as He desired to bless them from their beginning. He will give them all the land promised to their fathers and reign over them Himself from Jerusalem.

Christ will judge their enemies at the Judgment of Nations (Matt. 25:31-46) and place the other nations under them in privilege and importance. Israel will be the premier nation on earth, and that purely by the promise and good pleasure of God. This covenant lasts, at least, until the end of the Millennium.

Jesus Christ IS involved in the political squabbles of nations, particularly that involving the Nation of Israel. Sorry that some only see it as a political squabble.

Sorry to see so many on this board ready to blame Jews and give a pass to Muslim terrorists. Especially since Jesus is a Jew. So was Paul.

Sorry to see so many on this board who condone homicide bombers and terrorists. Especially when it will be happening in America before too many years.

Your next bus ride may be your last if the Terrorists keep getting their way - both in Israel and in America.

 

Jerusalem Post

Israel seems to have more common sense than our US Leaders & State Dept. I pray President Bush will seek Godly wisdom.

 

14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chron 7:14

Does anyone here who so arrogantly proclaim that God has abandoned His people recognize this verse? Yes God has punished the Jews time and again and yes without Christ they are lost but God will continue to deal with His chosen people and He will deal with those who fail to support them. It sickens and saddens me to see both of Abrahams children being treated the same by members of this board. Ishmael was the son of works but Issac was the son of promise. Did Paul not declare that Abraham was justified by faith and not works. There is a great difference between the two peoples and I am frightened that some here don't recognize this. I just watched the CBS miniseries on hitler and some of the things I have read here frighten me. I know that I am not the authority and I am not the sole moderator on this forum but I will take a stand against what I perceive as antisemitism. I strongly urge everyone involved to cease with the inflammatory posts denying God's care and control of His people.

Murph

 

wrong about what exactly?

do you deny that Israel invaded Lebanon!?!

and? the point is?

you believe that Sabra & Chantila never happened?

wow.

shame on you

you soil the name of those that died by using them to justify the murder of innocents by the state of Israel.

[ May 21, 2003, 05:21 AM: Message edited by: InHim2002 ]

 

amnesty international

source

[ May 21, 2003, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: InHim2002 ]

 

source

 

Failing to agree with the eschatology called dispensational premillennialism, that didn't even exist for all practical purposes until about 1830, is not anti-Semitic. The Jews as a race ceased to be God's chosen people when Jesus Christ died and took away the sin of the world on the cross.

John 1:29(NASB)
29 The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Romans 2:28-29(NASB)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Galatians 3:7-9(NASB)
7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

The fact that dispensationals resort to mudslinging the very moment that anyone dares to question their Johnny-come-lately eschatology and want to shut down all debate, as if dispensationalism somehow deserves hegemony in the field of eschatology, I find to be very, very revealing of the weakness of their position.

 

Ane who wanted Jesus to be crucified? Jews. And who were Paul's more ferocious persecutors? Jews.

So what's your point about Jesus, the Savior of the world, being born of the Jewish race as prophesied in the Old Testament? God picked one race to show that man cannot save himself by keeping the Law and to bring His Son into the world. Jesus to be human had to be born of some race of people.

And remember, Paul is remembered as being the apostle to the Gentiles.

We as Christians need to avoid racial and ethnic prejudice and bias. Remember, God is no respecter of persons according to the Bible.

 

Ken, Eschatology isn't the issue.

Defending homicide bombers is.

InHim, bob, and others continue to defend homicide bombers by pointing their anti-Semitic fingers at Israel.

Some people really believe it is possible to make peace deals with homicide bombers. But then some people have difficulty connecting the dots in any situation.

Too bad the murderers blow innocent men, woman, and children up with bombs & can't just stick to their "peaceful" Fatwas:

http://www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-fatwas.html

 

If it isn't about eschatology, then you dispensationalists sure do bring it up in a hurry in any conversation about the modern political state of Israel.

And, come on, no one in this thread is defending the idea of committing violence against a fellow human being. If anyone is doing that, they should be banished from the Baptist Board for the remainder of this age.

 

Well, Ken, when the first member to post something about premills and pretribs in this thread lists as a personal statement about Jesus (in their member profile) "He is okay" it does tend to raise an eyebrow.

http://www.conceptwizard.com/conen/conflict_2.html

Israel is the only Democracy in the Region.

Does anyone here REALLY believe creation of a Palestinian state will end up with a Palestinian Nation of Democracy and that a generation of homicide bombers will suddenly embrace LIFE and Freedom for Everyone in the region (including Christians and Jews)?

 

(sigh)

Recounting history is anti-semitic?

please.

 

I don't think it is quite that straightforward, no. But what is the alternative? the cycle of violence continues and the US taxpayer has to keep bankrolling it.

I think that if any progress toward is peace is going to be made both sides have compromise. A Palestinian state would represent a reasonable compromise IMO. Both sides in this conflict have blood on their hands, both sides are in the wrong and both sides have to find a way in which they can peacefully co-exist. The alternative is more deaths, more bloodshed, more heartache and more and more violence.

 

Switching gears, putting on Moderator Cap - This is page 3 with the usual six-hour warning - Thread will be closed no sooner than 3:00 pm ET by one of the Moderators.

SheEagle 09/11
Moderator

 

BTW, InHim, what compromise(s) would you suggest the Palestinians make?

What compromises HAVE the Palestinians made ALREADY in the name of "peace"?

 

I would suggest that it is not the Palestinians alone that need to compromise - it is all the states in the region. A few compromises that I think need to be agreed:

- Recognition that the state of Israel has a right to exist
- Recognition of the pre-1967 borders and respect for them
- An end to all terrorist activity
- Co-operation with the IDF to find and prosecute terrorists

In response I would suggest that:

- Israel withdraws to her pre 1967 borders
- Settlements stop

then both side should:

- Respects the Geneva convention and the UN charter on human rights
- Work together to agree a framework within which a Palestinian state can be created.

That is just off the top of my head, but that is basically what I mean when I say that both sides have to compromise, any thoughts?