Ezekiel 39:21-29

PB,

What part of my explanation denies typical word usage? Can you be specific?

Sometimes an unfamiliar view, or a view different than our own may seem that way--but you should still examine the sense of it.

I think mine holds up well and is totally in context with other N.T. teaching.

In Christ,

Tim

 

As Paul wrote that, God was not finished with the Jews--He was gathering them into the church through the ministry of Jewish apostles. God was being faithful to Israel through the salvation of a remnant (see O.T. prophecy of the New Covenant in Jer. 31, and notice the words "remnant", "residue", etc. which lead up to those promises).

He's still saving Jews today. He has not completely forsaken the people of the Old covenant. But that does NOT mean he still has a covenant with those of Jewish ethnicity based upon their ethnicity. That is NOT a New Testament concept.

In Christ,

Tim

 

It is very much a new testament concept.

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your (the gentile elect) sake.

Concerning the election (the fact of being chosen), they are beloved for the sake of the fathers (the patriarchs to whom the irrevokable promises - gifts and calling - were made).

[ September 24, 2003, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: npetreley ]

 

npetreley,

I agree that God has been faithful to His promises to ethnic Jews--saving a remnant of them to form the church. That confirms the Old Covenant. But under the New Covenant, faith is the determining "litmus test", not ethnicity. Now God's covenant relationship is with those who follow the faith of Abraham, not those who are merely descended from him--THAT is New Testament teaching over and over again.


In Christ,

Tim

 

Please explain the phrase
from Romans 11:26 "so all Israel
shall be saved". Thank you.

 

PB,

I've been out a lot lately. Let me see if I can catch up.

The Jews who were NOT hostile to Christ are our spiritual forefathers--the first Christians. God was (and still is) pleased to fill His family (the church) with Jews. Paul (IMHO) was reminding the Romans of that fact in Romans 11:12 lest they merely discount the Jews as an unworthy missionfield, and only seek the salvation of gentiles. His reminder is still applicable to us today. I don't see a prophecy awaiting fulfillment in that verse.

As far as Ez. 16:1-59 goes--it all seems to apply to Israel from before Ezekiel's time, at the birth of the nation, through it's glory years in David and Solomon's reign, into their apostasy in the years following and the resultant judgment.

Then Ez. 16:60-63 gives the promise of restoration (which came under the leadership of Ezra and Nehemiah) and then the culmination of national Israel in Christ's establishment of the New (eternal) covenant with them (the believing remnant, that is-- as Jeremiah 31 clarifies).

In Christ,

Tim

 

Because of the global and/or catastrophic wording of some prophecies, many dispensationalist believe in a "double" fulfilment of these prophecies, one near and one far-reaching.

So, to them, to say that a Scripture has already been fulfilled by a certain historical event in the past (For Example:The sack of Jerusalem 70AD) is only half the picture.

Isaiah 13
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.

 

Ed,

I have explained my interpretation of the phrase, "... so all Israel shall be saved ... " before on this board, though perhaps you weren't involved in that discussion.

Basically, I don't read it as a prophecy, but rather I believe the context indicates that it is a statement of obligation placed upon the Jews--based on Isaiah's prophecy which immediately follows. The word "shall" is often used this way in scripture, as in "thou shalt not kill", etc. It is a statement of obligation, not a prediction.

The passage with my commentary (based upon typical definitions of the words used) reads as follows:

"And so[or in this manner] shall[or must]all Israel[all Jews living from the time of Christ onward]be saved: as it is written[according to the prophecy in Isa.59:20,21], There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer[Christ--at His first advent], and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins[Christ fulfilled God's covenant with the Jews in saving those who put their faith in Him--forming them into the church].

If this was actually a prophecy of national salvation yet to come, I think we'd have a clearer indication of that here, as well as some other N.T. verification elsewhere.

In Christ,

Tim

 

HankD,

I know that dispensationalists believe in double fulfillment of prophecies--indeed it is essential to the system. And yes, some prophecies seem to have a literal and figurative fulfillment--though I'm not aware of any that have a double literal fulfillment.

But God is not obligated to fulfill any prophecy more than once.

In Christ,

Tim

 

PB,

1. Yes, David here is Christ. This fact shows us that the prophet is using figurative language here.

2. So, I read these promises in a generally figurative way. The land represents something even greater. According to Romans 4:12-14, I have inherited "the world" promised to Abraham. And Christ also verified this promise in the Sermon on the Mount, "the meek shall inherit the earth".