Dispensationalism

Salvation was, is, and always will be by grace through faith in the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

That is beside the issue of whether O.T. saved are in the N.T. church or bride. I do not believe they are.

rufus

 

Yes ... because the bride of Christ is teh church, which is composed of his body, which is made up of spirit baptized believers which did not start until Pentecost. OT believers were not spirit baptized and are not in the body of Christ and are therefore not a part of the bride. That does not mean they are not saved.

 

As a point of clarification, no one has yet to show a place where teh OT believer was commanded to believe in Christ. Let's not say more than Scripture does. They were saved by grace through faith in the revelation of God. The content of that faith was not Christ however.

 

Pastor Larry,

I'm not trying to be deragatory here so I apologize in advance. This just astounds me.

That's too bad. What an unfortunate circumstance for the OT faithful. They are going to miss out on New Jerusalem simply because they lived during the wrong time.

I guess the city Abraham and the others were looking for was a waste of their time.

I suppose that those living in NT times a somehow better off since they'll receive the highest degree of relationship with God simply because they were fortunate enough to live during A.D. instead of B.C.

Since I know you believe in Calvinism, this brings up another question. Is Perserverance of the Saints applicable only to the NT saints?

 

I didn't say the former and I don't believe the latter.

No.

 

Pastor Larry,

No, you didn't come out and say any of this, but it is implied isn't it? Don't you think it's rather unfortunate that Abraham, the Friend of God and paradigm of faithfulness, is not going to be in the bride? What explanation do you offer for this inopportune situation.

If Abraham was looking for a city he could never be a part of, why be looking for it to begin with?

 

No

Why is it inopportune?? I wouldn't describe it that way at all. I don't see Scripture describing it that way. The only explanation I need is Scripture. You haven't shown any place that Scripture says ABraham is a part of the bride. I have shown your Scripture as to why he's not. Why do you think that is bad for him? I certaily don't.

You are the one who said that he could never be a part of the New Jerusalem. I didn't say that and I don't believe it.

Here is a prime example of your understanding being forced on Scripture rather than being drawn from Scripture. That is why I reject your position.

 

Pastor Larry,

I don't like to throw out scriptures without understanding someone's position on something.

So you don't think is unfortunate? Don't you believe bridal relationship is something special? If you belive OT saints cannot enjoy such a relationship for no other reason other than their place in time, why wouldn't that be inopportune? Perhaps you could explain what kind of relationship an OT faithful saint will have with God vs. a NT faithful saint.

My fault. I assumed you believed bride = New Jerusalem. If you don't mind, please correct me. I'm sincerely interested in how you see it.

As for my conviction, I've alluded to Hebrews 11 so I guess that's a good starting point. Heb.11:16 says, But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city .

 

Dear 4 study and Pastor Larry,

A very interesting exchange of views. I too would ask the same question as 4 study. In Rev 21 we see the New Jerusalem descending from heaven. It is a holy city, the Bride of Christ/the Lamb. It would seem to be the city that Abraham was looking for.

Will our Old testament Father Abraham attain it?

Your time to answer Brother Larry.

Will our Father Abraham attain it?

Blessings in Christ, the promised Sacrifice Lamb,

Gavin
http://endtimepilgrim.org

 

Pastor Larry?

 

Pastor Larry,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are saying that the Old Testament saints did not have the Holy Ghost?

 

You're wrong ... They did. That is the only way to accoutn for their belief and obedience since man without the Spirit cannot do that. But "having the Spirit" does not put one in the body of Christ. It is Spirit Baptism that does that. I believe the Spirit indwelt OT believers. I do believe there is a difference in teh work of the Spirit in the NT and OT.

As for Abraham and the body of Christ, the OT will be heaven. Heaven is not the same as the bride of the Lamb, the body of Christ. Abraham was lookign for a city and indeed he will have it.

 

Pastor Larry,

If you don't mind, I'll piggy-back off you're last response to Primitive Baptist since you haven't responded to me yet (no offense intended, I know these things take time).

In a previous post concerning Abraham's position in New Jerusalem, you said,

I had made a comment suggesting Abraham, as an example, would not be able to be in New Jerusalem (bridal relationship) because of the statements you had made. Here, you say you "don't believe it".

Your recent response to PB says,

In one post you said you didn't believe Abraham would not be in New Jerusalem and here you say Abraham will be in "Heaven".

I'm confused. Could you clear this up for me?

 

My last paragraph to PB was a response to you. I should have so marked it. My apologies.

The New Jerusalem is heaven. IT is not the bridal relationship per se. There will be OT believers in the New Jerusalem, but they will not be in the bride of Christ.

 

Pastor Larry,

Thank you.

If New Jerusalem is heaven, how do you view these scriptures (KJV)?

Rev. 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev. 21:9,19 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God

 

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (1 Peter 1:11)

How can you have the Spirit of Christ and not be a part of Christ's bride? So, in eternity, Christ will have a bride, excluding all Old Testament saints? That is ludicrous!

20 PROOFS THAT THE CHURCH EXISTED PRIOR TO PENTECOST:

http://users.aol.com/libcfl/proofs.htm

 

In brief, the answer is that the "city" refers to both the physical city and the people who might be a part of it, without necessarily referring to the whole people.

 

Because Scripture never identifies the Bride as those who have been indwelt by the Spirit.

Talk to Christ ... he is the one that said it, not me.

None of which follow any sound rules of exegetical procedure. And the last one is plainly false by the following reasoning: 1 Cor 12:13 unequivocally says that Spirit baptism is the forming agent of the body (We were all baptized into one body by one Spirit). In the gospels, Spirit baptism is still future ("will baptize you with teh Spirit" according to the Baptist). Therefore, since Spirit baptism had not yet begun, there could be no body.

Additionally, the body requires a head, which could not happen until after the death and resurrection of Christ.

The arguments put forth in these 19 points are simplistic and off base. For instance, to say that "ek" and "kaleo" and the calling of the disciples means that they were the church is to ignore the contextual meaning of the world. Ekklesia is used as a technical term for the body of Christ. It is illegitimate totality transfer (referring to the semantic domain -- see Carson). The same is true with 2 and 3. Then the list starts on stuff that borders on humorous were it not so serious. Point by point, this list could be easily refuted. It is why bad exegesis leads to bad theology. We must let the Scriptures speak for themselves.

 

Pastor Larry,

The "physical" city? I'm not saying I disagree, but IMO, the primary focus of New Jeruslem is Who is there, not its physical characteristics (if there are any).

At any rate, your previous posts implied to me that you believe New Jerusalem is Heaven. The scriptures I posted say New Jerusalem, the city, is the bride, the Lamb's Wife. What about that?

So which is it? Is New Jerusalem Heaven or the Bride?

 

Pator Larry,

You says, Old Testament saints are not part of Christ's Bride.

Then, I ask you, what is "Bride" means?

In Joel 2:15-16 say,

"Blow the trumpet in Zion(heaven), sanctify a fst, call a solemn assembly: Gather the people, sanctify the conregation(Church), assmble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridgroom go forth of his chmaber, and the BRIDE out of her closet."

Joel 2:15-16 is talking about rapture at the second advent. "Bride" in the Old Testament, obivously, all saints of the O.T. are Christ's Bride same as N.T. saints are Christ's bride - ONE wife.

If you think O.T. saints are not Christ's Bride.

Then, one problem is.... "church" is not find anywhere in Revelation chapter 21, does that mean Church is not belong to New Jerusalem?? Huh???

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!