Hey Calvinists--What is the role of the Holy Spirit?

AGain, let the text speak:

God chose you for salvation from the beginning through setting apart of the Spirit and belief.

How did he do this?? Through our gospel, meaning the gospel preaching.

You confuse the setting apart here with the sancitification that takes place in the believers life. This is the setting apart of the spirit to salvation.

Again, this stuff is available in numerous sources that deal with it at a level this forum is not conducive to. I hope you will enlarge your horizons in this matter.

 

Larry, it is obviously you who needs to enlarge your horizons. Sancitifaction means "to set apart." One is not set apart by the Spirit until they have faith as Gal. 3:14 says.

The passage says "..to be saved THROUGH..." then it list three things, sancifing work of the Spirit, belief in truth and the gospel presentation.

Thinking out loud: How can he miss something so simple?

 

Alright then, explain 1 Peter 1:2

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Here, this sanctifying work fo the Spirit takes place before the obedience (which is the obedience of faith; cf. Rom 1:5) and the sprinkling of his blood (which is the forgiveness of salvation).

As I said, you have confused the setting apart work fo the Spirit to salvation with the setting apart work fo the Spirit after salvation.

He didn't. You did.

I am telling Bill, this is not new and it is not rocket science. Every objection you can throw at it has been long answered. It is out there and available for those who are willing to study.

 

Actually, I do get it. I have no problem getting it. I know the answer by a big word called "Study the Scriptures." You refuse to let them speak. Even in your explanation, notice how many things you added in to support your system. I cannot in good conscience do that. I believe the verses say what they do and should be allowed to. I have no compellign reason to mix them around.

Foreknow doesn't mean to "know who would believe beforehand." It means to lovingly choose, or to set one's affections on. This is clear from the meaning "know" in the OT. Furthermore as I already pointed out, your idea of foreknowledge is "what" i.e., their faith; Scripture says it is "who."

Notice how you have twisted the text to get your meaning. This text is not talking about a call to "everyone else in teh world." You have added that it in. It says that those who are called (all of them in the context) are also justified (all of them, not just some of them). Somehow, you have a leak in this verse. I can't accept that. It is talking about a call that results in justification for everyone who believes it. Who is justified?? The ones whom he called. There is no way to be called but not justified. For some reason, you see a necessity to add something in the text that is not there.

This is the common theological distinction between the general and effectual call. It is well known and well supported by Scripture.

I didn't create another call. The reason you don't see it in eh text is because your system won't allow it. THat problem is with your system, not with the text. The text readily admits this distinction.

You asked why he cannot respond in faith. These texts describe why. I don't know how much more basic it can get. It is funny though how you are determined to argue agianst yourself here. In Rom 8, you insist the unstated faith should be there. In these passages you insist that it cannot be there because it isn't stated. It shows how inconsistent you are in your thinking.

Do not tell me what I believe. I happen to know what I believe. You should as well by reading what is posted here. The problem is that you refuse to actually believe that we know what we believe. You think you can put words in our mouths. It won't work. The Bible says that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe. It further says that faith is a gift from God (Phil 1:29 and others). That's clear enough for me. You can add to it if you wish.

I believe that the call goes out through the gospel to all who hear. I am not convinced that that is the call of the Holy Spirit. We already discussed that and you didn't convince me.

 

Yeah, all who hear the gospel and those by the Spirit only. We see many times, and I myself have made opportunity to "witness" to someone the Gospel, but did not have the effect you claim, why, not necessarily that God will not at some time in the future provide the effectual call to the person, or persons I witnessed to, but actually that the Holy Spirit does not always work through me or in me. Just because I am speaking the Gospel, does not mean I am speaking it under the leadership of the Spirit. When Phillip was sent into the desert to speak to the Ethiopian eunuch, he went by the Spirit. People assume today that all that is needed is the speaking of the 'good news.' This is wrong, what is needed is the speaking of the truth under the leadership of the Holy Spirit, anything else, though from myself, is no less error than that of teaching man possesses a free will.

The Gospel is not effective because man proclaims it, but it is effective because the Spirit has proclaimed it. To say otherwise will ultimately glorify man and belittle the work of the Spirit in regeneration.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

If man contributed one iota to his salvation(be it repentance, faith, good works, etc.), then salvation would not be entirely the work of God and man would have "bragging rights". The Bible says that man has no "bragging rights".

 

L.R. Scarborough, 2nd President of Southwestern Seminary wrote the following in his book "With Christ after the Lost" in Chapter Six - "The Spiritual Stpes to God-The Soul's Salvation - What God Does before Salvation."

1. He foreknows, predestinates, elects
2. He Calls
3. He convinces and convicts of sin
4. He quickens
5. He worketh Godly Sorrows
6. He giveth repentance.

Thought you Texas Baptists needed to hear from one of your early Texas Baptist leaders on the subject.

 

Brother Dallas,

Just because you did not see immediate results such as a person finding Christ or being found of Him, does not mean that God the Spirit has not used you. The Holy Spirit attends the Word and witness to its credibility, even though the person may act like it is nothing important. The Spirit will continue to call him and perhaps a person might be in a car accident but still at that late time may as Jesus into his life. Don't ever be discouraged by no immediate results.

Some Christians place a tract in the hand of someone, but they need to explain the simplicity of the Cross and how it relates to them. This concept is all new to the lost person.

I find people witness to people and then let them hang. They do not explain that a person must confess their sin and invite Christ into their life. I have prayed with people a simple prayer phrase by phrase after I asked them if they would like to become a Christian. I use words somthing like this, and there are many similar sincere prayers that a witness can lead the sinner in by way of talking to God. I know this prayer is not a formula but it is the way I have the sinner relate to God. 'Lord forgive me of my sins, come into my life and make me a new person. Thank you for dying for me on the Cross and help me from this day forward to follow and love You. Amen.

Follow up in this persons life is vital as we both know.

My real point is don't get discouraged in your good work of faith by way of Christian witness.

Ray

 

Thanks Bro. Ray for your advice.

However, I do not get discouraged because of my belief in the Sovereignty of God. I agree with you that lack of immediate evidence does not justify saying the Spirit was not working. I fear it is this simple idea of repeating a prayer that some do use to 'lead' ones to Christ that creates the confusion and the ultimate disappointment when the 'convert' does not continue in the faith.

I believe God must move in the heart of the individual and do the leading in that prayer, must grant repentance, or that repentance is a sorrow of this world and not a Godly sorrow.

These are my basic beliefs, and because of these I am able to continue in the ministry I am called.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

I've been waiting for Jimmy to respond but I can't wait any longer:

Don't you also believe that only the "elect" will hear?

What about the fact that Paul says that the Gentiles will hear in Acts 28:28 as opposed to hardened Israel who will not?

Calvinists seem to take the phrase of Jesus which says, "All who have ears let him hear." And they apply that to the "elect" verses the "non-elect". But it is clear in light of the scriptures teaching about hardened Israel that he is distingushing between those who can't hear because of the hardening verses those who can hear and can respond to the message.

Is this what you believe? (Please correct me if I'm wrong):
1. There is a general calling of the gospel goes to all men.
2. There is a general calling of the Holy Spirit that goes to all men (though you don't believe it is linked with the general call of the gospel)
3. The general calling of the gospel and the general calling of the Holy Spirit cannot have any effect on man without the additional "effectual calling." So, the "non-elect" will resist the gospel and the general calling of the HS.
4. These general calls have "a damning effect" somehow making them "responsible" for not responding to them. In other words, "they are without excuse," since God called everyone with these general calls.

Have I stated you position accurately, I'm honestly just trying to understand it.

Paul in Romans 3:27 and following obviously doens't equate having faith with the works of the law by which man can "boast." Paul asserts that we can have faith but still not boast because we are not relying upon the "works of the law."

Grace is continually set up in contrast to the "works of the law." Faith is also set up in contrast to the works of the law. So to assert that somehow faith should be viewed as a work of the law goes against every view of the text.

Funny that you mention Scarborough, he is one of guys that Nettles blames for the dift away from Calvinism in Southern Baptist History in his book "By His Grace and for His Glory." Just FYI.

 

Brother Dallas,

I do not understand your statement in your last paragraph, dated time: 2:13a.m.

 

Ken H,

Arminians and Calvinists together have 'bragging rights.' We exult about the fact that Christ died for all sinners [Romans 3:23] and that He made it possible for everyone to be saved after hearing the Gospel. [Romans 3:22] 'Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto ALL and on ALL those who believe.' What part of 'all' don't Calvinists understand? To really believe in Jesus is to have faith in the One who promises the imputed righteousness of God to the sinner's life. [Romans 3:22 & Romans 4:6] The Israelites had their opportunity and still do, if they receive Christ as the true Messiah and Savior. As you know we do have Messianic Christians. In Roman 10:17-18 God said, 'Consequently, faith come by hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask, Did they not hear? Of course they did; "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world." [Psalm 19:1-4; Isaiah 65:2; Romans 10:18] {The New International Version}

Some have been blind-sided into believing that they alone have 'bragging rights.' Our God goes one step beyond the near-sightedness of Calvinism. We understand that Christ died for all people. Our God is not exclusive but all inclusive toward human life and the hope of eternal life in His blessed Presence. Don't under cut the true Gospel; there is a price to be paid when we stand before God. How many souls are lost in Hell to date because of the teachings of Augustinian Calvinism?

 

Do you have a passage in mind?? John 8:43 equates "hearing" with "understanding." So yes, only the elect will "hear" in that sense. However, like the Pharisees standing there, they could physically hear, so in that sense, No, not only the elect will hear.

What about it??

The place where this phrase is most often used has nothing to do with Israel. It has to do with the church (cf. Rev 2-3). So all those who have ears to hear refers to those with understanding.

Perhaps the reason no one talks about this is because it is not so "clear." In Romans 8, where we are told that the unsaved man "cannot please God," it has nothing to do with Israel. It has to do with the mind set on the flesh. The hardening is not even mentioned in this context, but ability is.

Yes

No, I believe it is the general call of hte gospel which is what I said earlier.

It will have the effect of hardening or damning apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. The non elect will resist the general call.

Yes.

 

What about it?? </font>[/QUOTE] Bro Bill premises his argument on the notion that there are three groups addressed in the NT. Hardened Jews, elect Jews, and Gentiles. It gives him a convenient out on election. He can say those scriptures refer to the Jews that weren't hardened.

 

By this, I mean I trust wholly in the Sovereignty of God. Otherwise, I believe I would certainly become discouraged and "dropout" of the ministry.

I heard on the radio today that approximately 1100 ministers experience burnout and stop pursuing the ministry (I think this figure is annually). I heard this through Dave Ramsey's program. Whether this is true or who compiled it, I do not know. If given that it is true, what is the reason that so many experience "burnout" I believe it would be due to the lack of trusting in the full Sovereignty of God. This would permit men to develop, maybe unconsciously, an idea that they must do this or that etc. when they fail to see results after beating their heads against the brick wall, they give up.

I hope this helps to shed light upon my former statement.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Do you have a passage in mind?? John 8:43 equates "hearing" with "understanding." So yes, only the elect will "hear" in that sense. However, like the Pharisees standing there, they could physically hear, so in that sense, No, not only the elect will hear.

What about it?? </font>[/QUOTE]In Acts 28, just two verses before verse 28 Paul quotes a text from the OT which says that Israel will not listen (like in Jn. 8:43) In contrast, it says in verse 28 that the Gentiles will listen (as in Jn 8:43)

The work "akouo" is used in both texts and in the same manner. The gentiles will listen (as in "understand") and respond just like this passage suggests would happen if Israel were not hardened.

This text is very straightforward and very simple to understand, yet you refuse to answer the obvious argument that I have now made a dozen times. Why?

Because you can see the obvious, "Hardened Israel won't listen and the Gentiles will listen," which contradicts your premise.

 

So?? What's your point??

Apparently not since I have never seen it or heard it brought up in this discussion. You seem to be the only one with this insight. I haven't read your arguments for this but then I don't read most of what you write so that is why.

How does it contradict my premise?? I think it contradicts yours. The Gentiles listen because God has opened their hearts (such as he did with Lydia). Israel does not listen because God has not opened their hearts. What's the difficulty?? The text does not say that the Gentiles hear without aid. In fact 1 Cor 2:14 is an explicit contradiction of that.

Did you read v. 24?? So much for that hardening theory. Some of "Hardened Israel" believed. Did you read v. 26?? They closed their eyes and ears. Again, I fail to see how in the world you are making any argument from this text. I don't think the hardening is any secret. It is a judicial sentence from God on Israel because of their unbelief. But it doesn't answer the problem you face of OT and Gentiles.