Free Will: What's the point?

Felix, Much of Jesus' teachings belie what you have just said. Jesus is the Son of God, and told us that "I and the Father are one". So that the perspective is proper.

Most of Jesus' teachings are that man can respond, man is able to choose, man can reason, man can be persuaded, man can obey, or God would not have instructed man to do things.

 

Reason thinks that man is mocked by an impossible commandment, whereas I maintain that by this means man is admonished and awakened to see his own impotence. So the words of the law are spoken, not to assert the power of the will, but to illuminate the blindness of reason, so that it may see that its own light is nothing, and the power of the will is nothing. Paul says: “By the law is knowledge of sin.” By the words of the law man is admonished and taught, not what he can do, but what he ought to do; that is, that he may know his sin, not that he may believe that he has any strength. One could argue that “perfect behavior is the responsibility of all men, but it does not follow that sinful man has the capacity to do so.” It remains absurd to reason’s judgment that God, who is just and good, should require of ‘free-will’ impossibilities; and that, though ‘free-will’ can not will good, He should yet lay sin to its charge; and that, by not giving the Spirit, He should act so severely and mercilessly as to harden, or allow to be hardened. Reason will insist that these are not the acts of a good and merciful God. They are too far beyond her grasp; and she cannot bring herself to believe that the God who acts and judges thus is good; she wants to shut out faith, and to see, and feel, and understand, how it is that He is good and not cruel. But faith and the Spirit judge otherwise, believing that God is good even though he should destroy all men.

Felix

 

Reason thinks that man is mocked by an impossible commandment, whereas I maintain that by this means man is admonished and awakened to see his own impotence. So the words of the law are spoken, not to assert the power of the will, but to illuminate the blindness of reason, so that it may see that its own light is nothing, and the power of the will is nothing. Paul says: “By the law is knowledge of sin.” By the words of the law man is admonished and taught, not what he can do, but what he ought to do; that is, that he may know his sin, not that he may believe that he has any strength. One could argue that “perfect behavior is the responsibility of all men, but it does not follow that sinful man has the capacity to do so.” It remains absurd to reason’s judgment that God, who is just and good, should require of ‘free-will’ impossibilities; and that, though ‘free-will’ can not will good, He should yet lay sin to its charge; and that, by not giving the Spirit, He should act so severely and mercilessly as to harden, or allow to be hardened. Reason will insist that these are not the acts of a good and merciful God. They are too far beyond her grasp; and she cannot bring herself to believe that the God who acts and judges thus is good; she wants to shut out faith, and to see, and feel, and understand, how it is that He is good and not cruel. But faith and the Spirit judge otherwise, believing that God is good even though he should destroy all men.

Felix </font>[/QUOTE]The truth is, the only thing that man cannot do is save himself! Man has all the abilities and capabilities to do everything that God "may have left" for man to do. That is where "free will" comes into the picture. We have the capabilities and abilities, but we choose to not use them (for myriad reasons). So choosing is an act of the will.

But with a mind and spirit that are fully capable in every way to respond to and obey God, the major reason man doesn't is "for lack of knowledge my people perish"

If man can accomplish great things in the natural realm, which by the way requires an extraordinary amount of spiritual activity, man can, with the right knowledge refocus his human energy/efforts with the right inspiration to bringing glory to God. That is well within God's plan for man. Wrongly focused energy brings great displeasure to God.

The "lack of knowledge" situation is the direct fault of the church, which is "hung up on the idea or concept" that God screwed up and allowed man to become totally depraved, or said another way, that man in his own will had more power than God. That is the single Greatest Lie the church continues to spread.

If the Church would remove that lie, and start teaching that God, in creating man created the most powerful of all of His "Natural" creations, and that because of sin, man has separated himself from the Glory of God. And that God is the initiator and completor of the redemption of man, requiring of man only that man choose to believe in Him, and or His Son in order to be redeemed.

Even so, and inspite of man's abilities and capabilities, man can "do nothing" of himself that pleases God outside of Belief in His Son, the only thing man does that takes no energy to do.

You may call my beliefs unbiblical, but I received my knowledge from 5 decades with the bible, and by observing God's creation over that period. I am convinced that the church is ignoring God's created man, and by it's teachings are keeping the "downtrodden" downtrodden. Jesus' teachings all uplift mankind but the church pushes man back down by emphasizing the wrong parts of Paul's teachings. Jesus teaches us about life, and how to obtain it, and the other apostles teach how to live the Christian life, and how to be aware of false teachings and teachers.

 

Jesus said, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:" John 6:44

No one can come.

Only those that are drawn by the Father come.

Yelsew, Even Jesus does not agree with you.

by His Grace
mike

 

Just what do you think God has been doing for the past 6 milleniums? He finished creating when He finished man. Man sinned "immediately", and God has been Calling him back ever since! What's so difficult that you can't see that? God did not wait until Jesus was born to a virgin human, to begin Calling us.
So to think that we are not called to Jesus is ludicrous. It is the Father's will that none should perish. He opened the Gospel up "from the Jews", exclusively, to "Whosoever believeth in Him".

If you think that some are not called, you need to identify them, so that we can be separated from them when the tribulation begins.

 

Hi Evberyone;
In MHO the only ones who haven't been called are the ones who haven't heard the gospel yet.This can only be the fault of the Christians.Myself included. I believe we should all be ready to tell others about Christ all the time. I feel responsible for the ones I haven't told.
May God Bless.
Mike

 

Don't believe the Bible ever says that's our job! You need to be consistent with your theology!

 

Yah, you're right Hardsheller, that comment was an awkward attempt ah humor. Mayby I don't try often enough at humor, and maybe that's the reason I don't. who knows?

 

Onliest choice gonna matter is did god chose you.Their's a lot of called men ,but who called them?You can get baptized ,but if you go down a goat you will come up one.

 

Makes perfect sense to me Hercules, because baptism does not save you....Period!

Does God reject ANY who come to Him?

Paul clearly says that man seeks God, even crawling to him.

The Gospel is presented to man, and man must choose to believe or not believe. It is that clear and simple to anyone who will open is eyes to see, which you Hercules evidently have not done.

 

If God wants something (freewill) and man wants something else (freewill), who wins? Does God lose to the almighty man?

 

Lets see God wills us to have free will - so whatever we do His will or not - His will is accomplished - There is NO situation whereby God cannot accomplish His will

Plus God uses circumstances to guide us and limit us

 

Agree but for one point, we are limited by design and manufacture, circumstances merely deter us, for if we have the will, we will conceive a way. However we are not so fortunate in the design area. We are not designed to live life in the realm of the birds, or the fish, we must develop the means to go to those realms, but we cannot live life in either realm unaided, nor can we travel from galaxy to galaxy unaided.

Yet it remains true that circumstances can limit us in the short term.

 

NO! It amplifies the fact that man has a nature bent on sin. If man did not have a sin nature, but only the choices between good and evil, man would choose good more often than evil. You should know Larry, that we all seek our own comfort level, and having a sin nature, sinning is more comfortable. That does not mean we do not have the ability to choose good, and there are many who do. Noah, Abraham, etc. are good examples, but most assuredly every man can choose to do that which is outside his comfort zone.

Why? God has established all that is necessary for man's salvation. Man can do no works good enough, there is only one sin strong enough to inhibit Salvation, and God's only requirement for man is that Man believes in Him, in his only begotten Son, and that man live the remainder of his natural life in accordance with his faith in God. Those who don't are subject to losing that which they don't use, including FAITH. God made it possible for man to return to Him. It is up to man to believe, and believing is a matter of Free will. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

John 3:27,....acts 5:38,39......John 14:5... Now to abide in the vine one must first be quikened and be shone the right doctrine.And to understand 2 timothy 2:19 as a gentile,so you will truly depart from iniquity.We must come out from among them and be ye separate.Who?Dead sinners.People walking in the vanity of their mind.ephesians 4:17.Our little minds are precious,for in it lies our conscience and a renewing of it is a great thing to god and is his work upon us.Ephesians 2.

 

Makes perfect sense to me Hercules, because baptism does not save you....Period!

Does God reject ANY who come to Him?

Paul clearly says that man seeks God, even crawling to him.

The Gospel is presented to man, and man must choose to believe or not believe. It is that clear and simple to anyone who will open is eyes to see, which you Hercules evidently have not done. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

MR.Yelsew,read 1st peter 1:20,21.A choice to believe.I never chose to believe in all my life,i just did believe and the reason i do is not because of a choice of mine.It's because what the precious son of God done on the cross,he offered himself to god with out spot or blemish.I believe because christ give me this belief before i was born.However I have not always lived like i believed,for i am a sinner.I thank God and his precious son Jesus for showing me the way and revealing to me himself in the scriptures.I departed from iniquity not by my will ,but by his will and i hope in him everyday.I don't know i'm a saved man i live by hope alone,i just hope the inner man feelings i have are not false.I have been given dreams and vision,but even that i live by hope in Jesus Christ and i do not exalt myself in any way in knowledge.I stay abased and suffer for the lord for he knows.If you know you are saved good,God never gave me that much knowledge only hope.I believe this one day i will meet the lord i hope with a smile on his face in his chamber in the dust and not a frown,of I never knew you.I love the lord and every word he spoke for they are life and spirit to me,his words help me cope with lifes daily grind.We were never promised nothing in this life ,but trials and tribulation right on down to death.The lord is the giver of all life and the substainer of it.My prayerfull heart was given not erned,or by choice,or by chance.Jesus did not gamble on the cross with the souls of his people.I have to hope i am one of his i try to keep his commandments the best i can though i am in the flesh,i do not live of the flesh,I walk in the spirit of hope and not the vanity of my mind in a corrupt and vain world we call earth.

 

Yelsew,you are bad about putting words in Jesus mouth.Things he did not say.I have noticed and i'm sure other's on here have also.