Free Will: What's the point?

Yelsew · Nov 21, 2003

IN CONTEXT HERCULES!

[1 Pet 1:13]Your minds, then, must be sober and ready for action; put all your hope in the grace brought to you by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
[1 Pet 1:14] Do not allow yourselves to be shaped by the passions of your old ignorance,
[1 Pet 1:15] but as obedient children, be yourselves holy in all your activity, after the model of the Holy One who calls us,
[1 Pet 1:16] since scripture says, `Be holy, for I am holy.'
[1 Pet 1:17] And if you address as Father him who judges without favouritism according to each individual's deeds, live out the time of your exile here in reverent awe.
[1 Pet 1:18] For you know that the price of your ransom from the futile way of life handed down from your ancestors was paid, not in anything perishable like silver or gold,
[1 Pet 1:19] but in precious blood as of a blameless and spotless lamb, Christ.
[1 Pet 1:20] He was marked out before the world was made, and was revealed at the final point of time for your sake.
[1 Pet 1:21] Through him you now have faith in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory for this very purpose-that your faith and hope should be in God.
(Regeneration is by the Word)
[1 Pet 1:22] Since by your obedience to the truth you have purified yourselves so that you can experience the genuine love of brothers, love each other intensely from the heart;
[1 Pet 1:23] for your new birth was not from any perishable seed but from imperishable seed, the living and enduring Word of God.
[1 Pet 1:24] For all humanity is grass, and all its beauty like the wild flower's. As grass withers, the flower fades,
[1 Pet 1:25] but the Word of the Lord remains for ever. And this Word is the Good News that has been brought to you.
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Individual Regeneration is the result of Individual Belief of the Word of God! Believe the Word and Be regenerated!
ACCORDING TO PETER, vs 13, it is within your mind that you determine your behavior! It is in your mind that you shape your behavior! It is in your mind that you determine to be obedient to the WORD OF GOD! It is in your mind that you put your hope in Jesus whom the Word of God reveals to you! It is in your mind that you must take responsibility for YOUR FAITH, for it is in your mind that FAITH exists! PETER SAID SO!

Yelsew · Nov 25, 2003

The Score: 

Peter 10

John Calvin 0

pinoybaptist · Nov 25, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
IN CONTEXT HERCULES! <blockquote>quote:<hr />[1 Pet 1:13]Your minds, then, must be sober and ready for action; put all your hope in the grace brought to you by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
[1 Pet 1:14] Do not allow yourselves to be shaped by the passions of your old ignorance,
[1 Pet 1:15] but as obedient children, be yourselves holy in all your activity, after the model of the Holy One who calls us,
[1 Pet 1:16] since scripture says, `Be holy, for I am holy.'
[1 Pet 1:17] And if you address as Father him who judges without favouritism according to each individual's deeds, live out the time of your exile here in reverent awe.
[1 Pet 1:18] For you know that the price of your ransom from the futile way of life handed down from your ancestors was paid, not in anything perishable like silver or gold,
[1 Pet 1:19] but in precious blood as of a blameless and spotless lamb, Christ.
[1 Pet 1:20] He was marked out before the world was made, and was revealed at the final point of time for your sake.
[1 Pet 1:21] Through him you now have faith in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory for this very purpose-that your faith and hope should be in God.
(Regeneration is by the Word)
[1 Pet 1:22] Since by your obedience to the truth you have purified yourselves so that you can experience the genuine love of brothers, love each other intensely from the heart;
[1 Pet 1:23] for your new birth was not from any perishable seed but from imperishable seed, the living and enduring Word of God.
[1 Pet 1:24] For all humanity is grass, and all its beauty like the wild flower's. As grass withers, the flower fades,
[1 Pet 1:25] but the Word of the Lord remains for ever. And this Word is the Good News that has been brought to you.
Click to expand...

Individual Regeneration is the result of Individual Belief of the Word of God! Believe the Word and Be regenerated!
ACCORDING TO PETER, vs 13, it is within your mind that you determine your behavior! It is in your mind that you shape your behavior! It is in your mind that you determine to be obedient to the WORD OF GOD! It is in your mind that you put your hope in Jesus whom the Word of God reveals to you! It is in your mind that you must take responsibility for YOUR FAITH, for it is in your mind that FAITH exists! PETER SAID SO! [/QUOTE]True, Peter said so, but Yelsew did not understand that Peter was addressing born again regenerated believers and giving them the whole counsel of God consistent to what Paul told the Philippians.

Philippians 3:17-21

17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20 For our conversation F13 is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself
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and to the Ephesians -

Ephesians 4:17-32

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness F11 of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
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In his hatred for Calvin, Calvinism, and the Doctrines of Grace, he fails to see that 1 Peter 1:23 is an affirmation of John 1:13-14 thus:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
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Doctrines of Grace - 31

Arminius - 0

Yelsew · Nov 25, 2003

Don't ignore what Peter is telling all those "Born Again believers", see vers 23

for your new birth was not from any perishable seed but from imperishable seed, the living and enduring Word of God.
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In other words, they were not regenerated, Born Again, until they heard and believed "the living and enduring Word of God"

pinoybaptist · Nov 25, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Don't ignore what Peter is telling all those "Born Again believers", see vers 23 <blockquote>quote:<hr />for your new birth was not from any perishable seed but from imperishable seed, the living and enduring Word of God.
Click to expand...

In other words, they were not regenerated, Born Again, until they heard and believed "the living and enduring Word of God" [/QUOTE]You are ignoring the thought being conveyed by Peter, Yelsew, in your desire to prove either Calvinism or the doctrines of Grace to be an ungodly doctrine.

These were already born again believers being taught the narrow way, the whole counsel of God, since they already have a regenerated Spirit, regenerated by the Word of God who is God Himself. Remember John 1:1 ?

Yelsew · Nov 25, 2003

Agreed, but when did their regeneration take place? Was it before they were able to hear the Word of God as in "total depravity", Dead in sins? Or was it because they heard the word of God that they became regenerated, Born Again, Believers.

That is what Peter is telling them, it is because of their hearing the Word of God and believing, that they are Born Again!

I know you have great difficulty with that, but that is what Peter is saying!

pinoybaptist · Nov 25, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Agreed, but when did their regeneration take place? Was it before they were able to hear the Word of God as in "total depravity", Dead in sins? Or was it because they heard the word of God that they became regenerated, Born Again, Believers.

That is what Peter is telling them, it is because of their hearing the Word of God and believing, that they are Born Again!

I know you have great difficulty with that, but that is what Peter is saying!
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You know my position in this, Yelsew. Man can reform himself, the criminal can turn over a new leaf, but it does not mean he had had a spiritual rebirth.

One can be a good follower of Buddha, or of the Dalai Lama, and observe all the precepts of their religion, but, it does not disprove their total depravity,rather, it proves their total inability to submit themselves to the Word of God.

These disciples were previously dead in sin and trespasses, but quickened by the word of God, and is now able to "see" (that is, understand the Kingdom of Heaven and its precepts) because they have been regenerated before conversion, before discipleship.

Their justification and belief (as in obedience, submission) is a result of their regeneration and not the cause of their regeneration.

Yelsew · Nov 27, 2003

Just when did this process you call regeneration begin?

Were these regenerated before being called by Jesus?

[Luke 5:1] Now it happened that he was standing one day by the Lake of Gennesaret, with the crowd pressing round him listening to the word of God,
[Luke 5:2] when he caught sight of two boats at the water's edge. The fishermen had got out of them and were washing their nets.
[Luke 5:3] He got into one of the boats-it was Simon's-and asked him to put out a little from the shore. Then he sat down and taught the crowds from the boat.
[Luke 5:4] When he had finished speaking he said to Simon, `Put out into deep water and pay out your nets for a catch.'
[Luke 5:5] Simon replied, `Master, we worked hard all night long and caught nothing, but if you say so, I will pay out the nets.'
[Luke 5:6] And when they had done this they netted such a huge number of fish that their nets began to tear,
[Luke 5:7] so they signalled to their companions in the other boat to come and help them; when these came, they filled both boats to sinking point.
[Luke 5:8] When Simon Peter saw this he fell at the knees of Jesus saying, `Leave me, Lord; I am a sinful man.'
[Luke 5:9] For he and all his companions were completely awestruck at the catch they had made;
[Luke 5:10] so also were James and John, sons of Zebedee, who were Simon's partners. But Jesus said to Simon, `Do not be afraid; from now on it is people you will be catching.'
[Luke 5:11] Then, bringing their boats back to land they left everything and followed him.
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If yes, specifically when did it happen, was it before they launched their boats, or caught the fish or after? In otherwords did they not need something to believe before they dropped everything and followed Jesus. Did Matthew not need something to believe before he left his "lucrative" occupation? Was Matthew regenerated so that he could hear Jesus say to him "follow me"?

Is it different with us? Why do we have to be regenerated before we can believe and be "born again"?

Yelsew · Dec 3, 2003

No Answer?

What about Hebrew's 11? Were Abraham, Noah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets all regenerated before they could have faith in God? If yes, where is the testamony to that effect? I don't believe any of them did the things they did without first believing there is a God, and believing in Him. What say you? Were each of them regenerated so that they could believe? What says so?

Free Will: What's the point?

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