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Jacob and Esau

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by npetreley, Feb 20, 2003.

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  1. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Brother Dallas,

    You are more than correct when you say the 'free will' of man always gets us into trouble. Adam and Eve used theirs in the wrong way as did the 'angel' that fell from his lofty estate in the presence of God.

    You said something to the effect that you would 'stay with the sovereignty of God.' Maybe if you were God you would have planned in this matter, but not so for Almighty God.

    There is a general oversight and prophetic plan that He has for human beings which we call time. He chastens Christians and nations who once loved Him but have forgotten Him. We can see this in our own floundering nation.

    God has chosen to give human beings a 'free will' and a 'clean slate' to write the story of their lives. He died on the Cross and only requires that we believe and trust in Him. [Acts 16:31]

    If He sovereignly moved us around, ordering some first through regeneration and then with a 'rubber stamp' 'Johnny come lately' belief in Him, one could hardly call this love toward and devotion to His ignominious death and glorious and eternal reality and Being. God does not program each soul to obey His predetermined life's plan. He has freely and willingly given to us a period of time which we call life in which we can either believe the simple Gospel or reject His plea, 'For God so loved the world . . . ' and like Judas, ' . . . betray Him.' [John 18:2]

    We are under His sovereignty but that sovereignty is not, and I say it reverently, before God, 'Divine puppetry.' If He were engineering every detail of our lives as human beings, especially in matters of eternal salvation or elimination from His alleged autocratic election, He would not be appealing to our responsibility as a human agent to believe in Him. Hundreds of texts in the former covenant as well as the 'better covenant' [Hebrews 8:6b] calling for authentic human response [John 1:12; Hebrews 5:9] {not a decreed election} and accountability before Him. [Revelation 20:12]

    Respectfully,

    Ray
     
    #21 Ray Berrian, Feb 22, 2003
  2. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    That's exactly right. The problem with your argument is that you make Calvinism into a charicature of 'Divine puppetry' and then dismiss it on that grounds.

    I could just as easily misrepresent Arminianism and come to as "powerful" a conclusion. An example might be, "God is not man's errand boy, as Arminianism insists, so that God must sit around and wait, on call, only to be told to run around and 'bind in heaven' everything we feel like 'binding on earth', as we decide what to do, willy-nilly. I cannot believe in a doctrine that so berates and degrades a mighty God."

    Does that describe Arminianism? Of course not. But it is no more absurd than your descriptions of Calvinism.
     
    #22 npetreley, Feb 22, 2003
  3. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    I can prove that God is not an errand boy, but you cannot convince us from the Bible that God has, for no apparent reason, chosen the billions for Hell while hand picking His little flock for everlasting life. His love is not measured through the evil of prejudice and partiality.

    A God who created the world and the mega-thousands of galaxies and keeps the planets in perfect rotation, and entered our sphere having died on the Cross in securing a 'covering' for our sins and everlasting life, this One can hardly be reduced to your characature of 'an errand boy.'
     
    #23 Ray Berrian, Feb 24, 2003
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