The 7-year tribulation period error

Failing to recognize a distinction between teh Tribulations (7 years) and the Great Tribulation (3 1/2 years) leads you to your mistaken conclusion. The Great Tribulation is also known as the time of Jacob's trouble, yet another indication of the pretrib rapture since "Jacob" is a reference to Israel being judged for their sins; the church's sins have already been judged.

The question I have never been able to get any from your side to give a satisfactory answer to is the question of "Why were they troubled by this?" If you are right (that Paul taught a posttrib rapture), their being in teh DOL would not have concerned them in the least; they would have expected it. Yet the teaching that they were in the DOL troubled them because they understood from Paul's teaching that they were to have been raptured out ahead of time.

Paul did not tell them they would witness this. I think Paul was telling them that if the false teachers were right, this would have happened by then. He did not tell them that they would see it (and you can read the text to verify that).

We don't have any problem with believers being on the earth during the Tribulation. There most certainly will be. There are people saved during the Tribulation. However, all the church (those saved in the church age) will be raptured before the Tribulation.

None of which contradicts a pretrib position.

The Tribulation is the result of correlating Scripture. Your position is the result of correlating Scripture. Scripture does not explicitly teach your view. You simple correlate Scripture in a way that we would say is inconsistent and inadequate

 

Yeah, but where does Scripture state that the "tribulation" is identical with the 70th week of Daniel? It doesn't. Only by accepting the pre-trib scenario a priori can one "correlate" scripture to make such an identification. This is very problematic given the pre-trib view is only a couple hundred years old. The consensus of Christian belief up from the beginning is that the Anti-Christ will come first (as it states in 2 Thess 2) before Christ comes, and there is no notion of a secret coming beforehand to evacuate the church.

 

We had this discussion once. The problem with your question is that you assume the DOL refers to the tribulation. I believe most post-trib believe the DOL referes to the second coming of Christ, also known as the Day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1). Indeed, since I didn't realize DOL could refer to the seven year tribulation, I couldn't understand how anyone could be pre-trib because it specifically says the man of lawlessness must be revealed first. Now I believe the question hinges on what DOL really is and there is in no way an agreement on this among scholars and commentators (for a view that bascially resembles what I used to believe before discussing this with pastor larry, see Schreiner's "Paul, an Aposlte of God's Glory in Christ").

If DOL refers to the second coming, then they would indeed be very troubled. Somehow they missed the second coming of Christ? Things are continuing as before and indeed, they are even still in persecution?

 

Often, pretribulationism teaches, "Jacob's Trouble" of Jer. 30:7 is 7 year tribulation period. But, Jer. 30:7 does not saying it is 7 year of tribulation period.

Jer. 30:7 speaks of Israel got in trouble with Babylon, then later freed from the captivity under Babylon.

Jer. 30:7 already fulfilled about 2500 years ago.

You have to read context start with Jeremaih chapter 29 continue through chapter 30. Chapter 29 speaks of Jeremiah, the prophet warned to Israel, that Babylon will invade and God will punish Israel, if not repent. Chapter 30 speaks of Israel already punished and taken into captivity under Babylon, then later freed from the captivity for 70 years under Babylon.

Jer. 30:7 do nothing with future 7 year of tribulation period.

Also, there is no scripture saying there will be 7 year of tribulation period.

Of course, pretribbers would saying YES!

Book of Revelation is not chronologically, nothing in the book of Revelation saying there will be seven year of tribulation period. It tell us, only 3 1/2 years or 42 months.

How can you prove that 666 or Antichrist will be revealed while in the MIDDLE of the seven year of Tribulation period according to revelation chapter 13???

You can't prove it.

You have to be realize that Revelation show of retelling the events, and also, there are cycles of the events in Revelation.

I have been reading Revelation so many times. At first, I thought it was chronological, but later, I realized it is not chronological.

I urge you to read Revelation repeat and repeat very carefully, take your time.

Dan. 9:24-27 already fulfilled at the Calvary, not suppose future seven year of tribulation period.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Failing to recognize a distinction between teh Tribulations (7 years) and the Great Tribulation (3 1/2 years) leads you to your mistaken conclusion. The Great Tribulation is also known as the time of Jacob's trouble, yet another indication of the pretrib rapture since "Jacob" is a reference to Israel being judged for their sins; the church's sins have already been judged.

The question I have never been able to get any from your side to give a satisfactory answer to is the question of "Why were they troubled by this?" If you are right (that Paul taught a posttrib rapture), their being in teh DOL would not have concerned them in the least; they would have expected it. Yet the teaching that they were in the DOL troubled them because they understood from Paul's teaching that they were to have been raptured out ahead of time.

Paul did not tell them they would witness this. I think Paul was telling them that if the false teachers were right, this would have happened by then. He did not tell them that they would see it (and you can read the text to verify that).

We don't have any problem with believers being on the earth during the Tribulation. There most certainly will be. There are people saved during the Tribulation. However, all the church (those saved in the church age) will be raptured before the Tribulation.

None of which contradicts a pretrib position.

The Tribulation is the result of correlating Scripture. Your position is the result of correlating Scripture. Scripture does not explicitly teach your view. You simple correlate Scripture in a way that we would say is inconsistent and inadequate </font>[/QUOTE]Amen, Brother Pastor Larry -- Preach it!


Note the Bible does NOT say:
That if npetreley shalt confess with his
mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe
in npetreley's heart that God hath raised
Jesus from the dead,
npetreley shalt be saved.
Nevertheless, though the Bible does not
say it, it is true, very true.

 

Deafpostrib: "Book of Revelation is not chronologically, nothing in the book of Revelation saying there will be seven year of tribulation period. It tell us, only 3 1/2 years or 42 months."

Yes, 3½-years
= 42 months
= 1260 days
= "time, times, and half a time"
This time period is mentioned five
times in Revelation and twice elsewhere
in the Bible. Some of these events
are mutually exclusive: both cannot happen
at the same time. Therefore by the book of
Revelation we get that the full Tribulation
period will be 7-years long (as
prophesied by Daniel).

 

I got your point, Ed, and I'm half asleep. Preach it, Brother Ed & Larry!

Listenin' for that sweet trumpet sound,
She Eagle

(Chiming in only, the never ending going round and round makes me tired...so very tired, sighing now. I see Jesus appearing now, trumpets blowing, saying "come up here" to His badly beaten, bruised, and scarred bride who just went through the Great Tribulation. Of course her wedding garments aren't spotless, no, rather, they are ripped, shredded, soiled, and stained from enduring the 7 years of hell on earth, raped & plundered by the anti-Christ...nevertheless, the Bridegroom comes for the battered Bride, His Church...sigh....) [/ ]

 

Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV1769):

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression,
and to make an end of sins,
and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand,
that from the going forth of the commandment
to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah
the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
the street shall be built again,
and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall
Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
and the people of the prince that shall
come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
and the end thereof shall be with a flood,
and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant
with many for one week:
and in the midst of the week he shall
cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
and for the overspreading of abominations
he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation,
and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

If you don't see that "he" here in verse 27
is the Antichrist, then you will really have a time
getting anything down about the seven years Tribulation
period with the Abomination of Desolation (AOD)
in the middle of the 7-years (i.e. 3½-years past
the beginning and 3½-years before the end).

Some want to say that "he" in Daniel 9:27 is
"Messiah the Prince". But Messiah Jesus speaks of
the prophecy of Daniel in Matthew 24:15. From what
Jesus (the Christ /in Greek/ the Messiah /in Hebrew/
the Chosen One of God /in English/) says in
Matthew, it seems apparent to me that Daniel 9:27
the "he" is speaking of the Antichrist (AC).
So the AC will reign 7 years: 3½-years before the
AOD and 3½-years after the AOD.

Interesting how divergance of theology and
variation of doctrine comes from the resolution
of the referrant of a simple pronoun like "he"
as in Daniel 9:27.

 

Thank you Sister SheEagle.
It is the blind who do not see the clear
truths of the Holy Bible.

 

Ed, you still haven't shown that the Tribulation is equated with the entire "70th week". Most scriptures (eg. Matt 24) refer to the great tribulation occuring after the abomination of desolation which is midway through the 70th week, and scriptures (particularly in Daniel and Revelation) focus on the second half of the week (3 1/2 years, or "time, times and half a time",or 42 months or 1260 days) as the Beast's reign of terror. Nowhere is the Tribulation equated with the entire "7 years".

 

The Great Tribulation. The Teaching of Jesus. The precise expression, "great tribulation" (Matt. 24:21; Rev. 2:22; 7:14, Gr. thlipsis megale), serves to identify the eschatological form of tribulation. These words are Jesus' caption for a worldwide, unprecedented time of trouble that will usher in the parousia, Jesus' return to earth in great glory (see parallels Mark 13:19, "tribulation," and Luke 21:23, "great distress"; also Rev. 3:10, "hour of trial").

This period of time will be initiated by the "abomination of desolation" (Matt. 24:15) predicted in Dan. 9:27, a desecration of the "holy place" by one whom many scholars believe is the same as the "man of lawlessness" of II Thess. 2:3, 4. Jesus gives specific instructions to inhabitants of Judea for their escape and warns that the intensity of its calamities would almost decimate all life (Matt. 24:15-22).

Views of the Great Tribulation. Though some modern interpreters, along with many ancient commentators and early fathers, are inclined to regard Jesus' predictions as totally fulfilled during the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, the words of Matt. 24:29, "But immediately after the tribulation of those days," seem to connect them with the parousia. Jesus' words in verse 21 are probably an allusion to Dan. 12:1 because of the reference there to unparalleled trouble (LXX, thlipsis). The Daniel passage strengthens the case for the eschatological view of the great tribulation, because it places this period prior to the resurrection of Daniel's people.

Since Jesus made this prophecy, major wars, catastrophes, and cosmic phenomena have stimulated belief in the presence of the great tribulation. Such a tendency is typified by Hesychius of Jerusalem in some correspondence with Augustine. Augustine disagreed, preferring to interpret such things instead as characteristics of history as a whole with no particular eschatological significance. In modern times some premillennialists have speculated on the trend of current events as possible precursors of the great tribulation, some even attempting to identify the antichrist with such candidates as Kaiser Wilhelm II and Mussolini.

Adherents of the major millennial views place the great tribulation at different points in relation to the millennium. Both postmillennialists and amillennialists regard it as a brief, indefinite period of time at the end of the millennium, usually identifying it with the revolt of Gog and Magog of Rev. 20:8-9. Postmillennialists view history as moving toward the Christianization of the world by the church and a future millennium of undetermined length on earth culminating in the great tribulation and final return of Christ. In contrast, amillennialists consider the millennium to be a purely spiritual reality from the first advent to the second, a period lasting already two thousand years and to culminate in the great tribulation, a somewhat less optimistic view of history and the progress of the gospel witness.

To premillennialists the millennium is a future, literal thousand years on earth, and the great tribulation a chaotic period toward which history is even now moving, a decline, i.e., to be terminated by the return of Christ before the millennium. One group, which describes itself as "historic" premillennialists, understands the great tribulation to be a brief but undetermined period of trouble. Another group, dispensational premillennialists, connects it with the seventieth week of Dan. 9:27, a period of seven years whose latter half pertains strictly to the great tribulation.

Within the premillennial movement another issue, the time of the rapture of the church, has given rise to three views. Pretribulationists (rapture prior to the seventieth week) and midtribulationists (rapture at the middle of the seventieth week) perceive the great tribulation as characterized by the wrath of God upon an unbelieving world from which the church is necessarily exempt (I Thess. 5:9).

Posttribulationists believe that the great tribulation is merely an intensification of the kind of tribulation the church has suffered throughout history, through which the church logically must pass. A more recent, novel view in the posttribulation camp seeks to maintain the imminence of the rapture despite the fact that notable tribulational events would necessarily intervene. In order to do so, the events of the great tribulation would be "potential" but uncertain in their fulfillment. Jesus could come at any moment, and one could look back into recent history to see events that fulfilled the great tribulation.

Rufus

 

It just took me 27-min to get a
posting screen. I'm several posts behind.

Npetreley: "Assuming it is
a response to my post, I
have these comments: ... "

Yes, your assumption is correct.
And thank you for forthright comments
(in contranst to elsewhere & elsewho
posts which are really wishy-washy )

Seems strange to me that the various doctrines
seem to hinge on simple words!
1. the "and" in 2 Thessalonians 2:1
2. the initial "and" in Matthew 24:31
3. "first" in Revelation 20:5
4. Prophetic "day"
and other simple concepts:
5. chapter division in 1 Thessalonains 4 & 5
6. the refferant of "he" for Daniel 9:27

Here are the five references in Revelation to
the 3½-years:

1. Revelation 11:2
- gentiles shall tread the holy city underfoot 42 months
- the Temple shall be built - same 42 months

Hello! the temple has to be rebuilt before the
AC can commit the abomination of desolation (AOD).
This 3½-year period has to be before mid-trib.

2. Revealtion 11:3
- the two witnesses shall prophesy 1260 days

This must be before the mid-trib crises else
the two witnesses will be resurrected during
the Second Advent event at the end of the Tribulation
Period. So the death & resurrection of the two
witnesses is part of the mid-tribulation event.

3. Revelation 12:6
4. Revelation 12:14
- Israel is protected in the wilderness
by God for 3½-years

Second half of the Tribulation Period.

5. Revelation 13:5
- AC given total authority for 42 months (3½-years)

This strong implies a time when the AC does
NOT have authority and which i believe to
be the first 3½-years of the Tribualtion Period.
During the first half of the
Tribulation Period the AC is consoladating his
area of leadership.

 

Ah, a bit faster today, only 20 seconds
to get a posting screen instead of 27 minues
like last night


Revelation 11:1-2 (nKJV):
Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod.
And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure
the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple,
and do not measure it,
for it has been given to the Gentiles.
And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

One measures to build,
one does not measure where one is not to build.
The Temple exclusive of the outer court has
to exist before the AC can commit the abomination
of desolation (AOD).

Npetreley: "As for the Gentiles trampling on the holy city -- they're
doing that now, and have been for 2000+ years
(and several times before that). So that doesn't
qualify any period -- no matter where you want
to place it -- as a "tribulation" period."

Actually this is exactly the error that
peterists make. For the peterists we have
been in "the tribulation" since 70AD.

Here is the other reference to the Jews trampling
over Jerusalem:

Luke 21:24 (nKJV):
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword,
and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles
until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The "times of the Gentiles" I like to call
the "Church Age", that is the time during which
the largely gentile (but including some Messianic
Jews) born-again Christian elect saints church
is gathered (entry is possible).
I've spoken with several Messanic Jews and they
beleive that when the last possible gentile
who will ever get save, gets saved, then
the pretribulatin rapture will take place.

This time of the Gentiles (Church age) goes
from the day of Pentacost to the pretribualtion
rapture. The similar prophecy in Revelation 11:1-2
takes place during a different dispensation:
the Tribualtion Period.

Npetreley: "You totally lost me with your post."

Just what i thought, you are lost
One can be spacialy disorientated (lost in space)
One can be temporaly disorientated (lost in time)
One can be spiritually disorientated (lost)

After each number, i put which half
of the tribulation period I believe that
feature happens. You are welcome to disagree.
My usual crowd of harrasers want to add all
five of the 3.5 yeras together and make
me saying the tribulation period is 17.5 years
long