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Just who all is included?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Yelsew, Sep 8, 2003.

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  1. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    In the words of Jesus, Said to Nicodemus,
    Said in the Synagogue at Capernaum,
    Jesus told but one man that whosoever believeth in Him has everlasting life. Then he told a whole synagogue full of very religious people, scribes and priests included, what the Father's will is, and He uses terms that are all inclusive.

    Was he speaking of only "an elect", or was he speaking of any and all out of the totality of mankind who believed (sees and believes) (hears and believes) (Reads and believes) etc.?

    Who is Jesus, and what weight do his words carry in the Christian faith?
     
    #1 Yelsew, Sep 8, 2003
  2. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Yelsew... the correct reading is whosoever believeth which is past tense... Not who will believe... The elect are embraced in the believeth as only they will believe as they are the only ones Jesus Christ came for and none else!... The elect are ALL inclusive being covered by the blood of Christ... It is not Chance... It is not Choice... It is ALL GRACE!... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist [​IMG]
     
    #2 tyndale1946, Sep 8, 2003
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    As I have explained many many times, there is no difference between the "elect" and "whosoever believes." Whoever believes is the elect. It is an all inclusive term ... Whoever believe ... every single person who believes ... they all have eternal life.

    I don't understand why you keep questioning this very basic point. People believe because they are elect. Were they not elect they would not believe.

    Jesus is God and his word is the final rule for faith and practice. However, this question is out of place here it seems.
     
    #3 Pastor Larry, Sep 8, 2003
  4. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Not acceptable! NOT Biblical!

    "Whosoever believeth" is not past tense! It is, instead, "anticipative", meaning that should anyone come to believe in Jesus, they shall have eternal life. Your definition short circuit's God's Grace, thus limiting God's grace to that nebulous undefinable, "elect".

    Your definition says that God lost the elect, and sent Jesus to find them! What else has God Lost? Is it just "the elect" that are "totally depraved" and in need of being found? OR is it all of mankind that Jesus came to seek and to save?

    Why would Jesus say such things privately to "a teacher of the people" saying that Nichodemus should already know such, and then to a synagogue of "religious persons who should also "know the things He said"?

    The truth is that Jesus is telling people that if they come to believe in Him they too shall have eternal life. He is the author of life and is giving any who believe the opportunity to have that life. Many will come to believe, but many more will not!
     
    #4 Yelsew, Sep 8, 2003
  5. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Pastor Larry,
    The question was put there to draw focus to the author of life, the Creator, the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, to show that He is the one who is offering life to anyone out of all mankind, who will hear the Gospel message, and believe that Jesus is the Son of God the Messiah, who was sent to atone for the sins of ALL MANKIND, so that "whosoever believes in Jesus", is not judged by their unbelief but passes from death into life eternal, bypassing the Lake of fire. And, that such belief is a human choice, not made for each individual by God, but by man! It is individual man choosing to acknowledge what God has already done for ALL MANKIND. The choice is to Accept that accomplished work, and thereby change allegience from one's sinful self to God and His righteousness. The headline reads, "Man switches sides and receives eternal reward from God"!

    [ September 08, 2003, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]
     
    #5 Yelsew, Sep 8, 2003
  6. GH

    GH New Member

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    In Col. 1 Paul speaks of Jesus:

    15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, 16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him, 17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him. 18 And He is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn from among the dead, that in all He may be becoming first, 19 for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell, 20 and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens.
    21 And you, being once estranged and enemies in comprehension, by wicked acts, yet now He reconciles 22 by His body of flesh, through His death, to present you holy and flawless and unimpeachable in His sight, 23 since surely you are persisting in the faith, grounded and settled and are not being removed from the expectation of the evangel which you hear which is being heralded in the entire creation which is under heaven of which I, Paul, became the dispenser.

    Jesus was given ALL and He will lose NONE.

    \o/ Praise Him
     
    #6 GH, Sep 8, 2003
  7. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Thanks GH for the scripture.

    It pretty well defines that Calvinism's "elect" are only a relatively "small" part of what the Father gives to the Son.

    However, I don't think this scripture can rightly be divided to mean that nothing that is will be lost, for John in Revelation tells us that this heaven and this earth shall pass away to be replaced (not renewed) by a New Heaven and New Earth. With that passing away, the lake of fire will also pass away, because sin and evil have been dealt with for all eternity.

    The New Earth will be without the seas, and it will have a New Jerusalem with dimensions so vast that if every human who ever lived were to be there, each would have at minimum 1/3 cubic mile of space to call home. It also says that the source of life on the New Earth is not going to be a burning ball called the sun, but the very presence of the Father, and the river of life that flows from His throne.

    It still remains that it is appointed once for man to die, then the Judgment. The judgment will be for those who do not have faith in God the Father and Jesus. For those who do have faith will not be judged. Those judged will be cast into the lake of fire where they will experience the second death.
     
    #7 Yelsew, Sep 9, 2003
  8. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Even those with faith will be judged, but not unto condemnation.

    The Lake of Fire is an eternal torment where unbelievers will suffer the second death. Where does the Bible say the Lake of Fire will pass away?

    When Christ returns he will rule in righteousness and when he delivers the kingdom up to the Father this rule of Christ will be submitted to the Father for God shall become all and all and He who has put all things under his feet is not put under his feet. Then there will be dwelling in righteousness for all the elect. This number is the same number who possess faith in God through Jesus Christ receiving the promise that He is able to raise them from the dead even as Abraham received in a picture.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
    #8 Frogman, Sep 9, 2003
  9. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    It seems the Lake of fire is associated with this first creation, for it was made as a place where God would destroy evil and all who do not repent and believe during this natural lifetime. When this present heaven and earth (creation) disappears after the judgment of evil, though scriptures do not say so, it is quite logical to believe that the Lake of fire disappears too, because a new heaven and earth are created. With evil vanquished, there is no reason for a Lake of Fire. So the New Creation does not have one. Where did the old one Go? Only God knows, but it is gone forever along with its contents. It is not something for believers to be concerned with anyway because it is final.
     
    #9 Yelsew, Sep 9, 2003
  10. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Let us get one thing straight before we proceed any further... THE ELECT ARE NOT A SMALL PORTION!... They are a multitude which no man can number... Their number is as the sand of the seas and the stars in the sky... THAT IS WHO CHRIST DIED FOR!... HIS ELECT!... They are not a handful and they are not a few... THEY ARE A MULTITUDE!... THAT IS WHO IS INCLUDED!... That is what the Bible says and they are arrayed in robes of white and palms in their hands... And cried with a loud voice saying... "SALVATION TO OUR GOD WHICH SITTETH UPON THE THRONE, AND UNTO THE LAMB" These are the ELECTED in GRACE the children of God... Not by anything they did but by ALL HE DID!... GRACE... Unmerited favor bestowed upon an unworthy subject... And the only way we are worthy is in Christ Jesus THE LAMB OF GOD!... Brother Glen [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Ref... Revelation 7:9-10
     
    #10 tyndale1946, Sep 9, 2003
  11. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    That's nice, but that same discription is what the scriptures reveal about ALL the believers in Jesus (hence God).

    Therefore, you must be saying that "whosoever believeth in Him..." are "the elect" regardless of any mysterious predetermination.

    Scriptures say that the "Whosoevers" are the Bride of Christ because they believe in Christ. Believers in Christ pass from death unto life with the Christ. Jesus invites any and all who can and will hear his voice; and ALL of humanity was given the same capabilities to hear and the same capabilities to believe and choose. ALL mankind is made in the image of God. However, many refuse to do so, of their own free will, choosing evil instead, just as Satan chose evil.

    So you can go on thinking that you are in an elite group who were so depraved as to be totally depraved beyond any ability to save themselves and we'll have agreement for truly no man can save himself since salvation is the free Gift of God to those who, by their own free will, believe in God's only Son Jesus.

    ALL men are drawn to Jesus, But most will not come to Jesus through their own faith in Him. Most will continue in unbelief because they choose to not believe.

    It's kind of like Jesus feeding the pidgeons. The birds are all about, and when He throws the seed out on the ground, they flock to the seed, but not all of them get the seed. They all have the same abilities to see the seed and to pick up the seed, but some out of fear do not come close, some because they are stuffed on other seed are indifferent, some get "chased away" by dominant birds, etc.

    Ah, but then accordng to Calvin, there are the favorites, the "pretties" , the "performers", etc., "The Elect" who get theirs whether or not they want it. It's OK if you want to see it that way, but scriptures reveal that Jesus came for ALL, revealed Himself to ALL, made the promises to ALL, and Died for ALL, was buried and Resurrected for ALL, and leaves it up to each of ALL to determine what they each will do with Jesus.

    The Father in Heaven retains "the elect", His chosen race, the Jews. He alone has dominion over them, for they are His elect. He does allow some of them to believe in His only Son and thereby recieve the free gift of Salvation through their faith in His Son. But He deals with the rest of his Elect as He will.
     
    #11 Yelsew, Sep 9, 2003
  12. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Scriptures reveal that Jesus came for ALL, revealed Himself to ALL, made the promises to ALL, and Died for ALL, was buried and Resurrected for ALL, and leaves it up to each of ALL to determine what they each will do with Jesus.

    That does not even make sense... If Jesus Christ DIED WAS BURIED AND RESURRECTED FOR ALL... Then ALL are saved!... ALL OF MANKIND!... ALL OF ADAMS RACE!... But you make ETERNAL SALVATION dependent upon what the dead alien sinner will do... not on what Christ DID to SAVE the dead alien sinner!... Brother Glen :rolleyes:
     
    #12 tyndale1946, Sep 9, 2003
  13. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Once again you demonstrate that you reject how God made us. He made us with the abilities to hear, to believe, to choose, etc.

    He did not give us the capability to save ourselves, but He did make the way whereby we can be saved through our faith in His only begotten Son, Jesus.

    All of the Apostles agree, that it is OUR (possessive) FAITH, not someone else's faith, which saves us. Therefore faith is something that we ourselves, individually, must arrive at in order to be saved. We do that by Hearing the Word of God and believing that it is truly the Word of God and that it is true in every aspect.

    When we hear the Word of God, The spirit of God comes into our spirit and renews us from within, and thereby we are sanctified, set apart from the world, marked for eternal life, and our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Did we do anything that earned for us salvation? NO! All we did is Hear and believe. In believing we became marked for Salvation which is the free gift of God.


    We did not make the object of our faith (tho' we can, depending on what we have faith in)
    We did not make our own justification.
    We DID NOT atone for our sins and cannot for others.
    We CANNOT save ourselves or others
    WE DO sanctify ourselves by believing in Jesus.
    We DO determine our Eternal destiny by our faith.
     
    #13 Yelsew, Sep 9, 2003
  14. GH

    GH New Member

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    Ah but Yelsew, with God ALL THINGS are possible.

    He can do MORE than we could ever ask or imagine.

    1Tim 2:6-Salvation of all is testified in due time- Are we judging God before due time?

    Jn 12:47-Jesus came to save all-Will He succeed?

    Rm 5:15-21-In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live- The same all?

    1Cor 15:22-In Adam all die, in Christ all live- Again, the same all?

    Eph 1:10-All come into Him at the FULLNESS OF TIMES – When?

    Luke 2:10-Jesus will be joy to all people – Hallelujah!

    Heb 8:11,12- All will know God – All?

    1Tim 2:4-God will have all to be saved-Can His will be thwarted?

    1Tim 2:4-God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth- Will His desire come to pass?

    Rm 11:32-All subject to unbelief, mercy on all- All?

    Rm 11:36-All out of, through, and into Him-ALL into Him?

    Eph 4:10-Jesus will fill all things-Including "hell" and the Lake of Fire?"

    Rev 5:13-All creation seen praising God-Including Satan? (He IS a created being.)
    1Cor 15:28-God will be all in all- What does THAT mean?

    This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ("will have" in some translations) all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in DUE TIME. (1 Tim 2:3-6).

    1 John 4:14 tells us that the Father sent the Son to be Savior of the world. John 3:35 tells us that the Father has given all into Jesus' hands. It is the desire of the Father to save all and He has given Jesus all power and authority to do his will. "This is the will of the Father Who sent Me, that of all He has given Me, I should lose nothing, but raise it up at the last day." (John 6:39) The Father has given all into His hands. (John 3:35)

    3:35) Phl 2:9-11-Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord- Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?

    1Cor 12:3-Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit- See what I mean?

    Let the praising begin!! \o/
     
    #14 GH, Sep 9, 2003
  15. GH

    GH New Member

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    Frogman,

    One night I couldn’t sleep and I went outside and starting looking up at the stars. Marveling at their beauty and multitude of them. The promise that God gave to Abraham came to mind - He said that He would make his seed as the stars in the sky and the sands of the seashore. Just the thought of the numbers boggles my mind. What do you figure the number is? I couldn’t even begin to guess.

    God had called Abram out of pagan worship and sacrifice to idols to a new country. God made a covenant with him, a completely ONE-SIDED covenant, btw. Back in the old days, a blood covenant was when two parties of the covenant, as they walked between the pieces of animals were to say something to the effect, "If either of us break this covenant, may what happened to these animals, happen to the one who breaks the covenant. In other words, this kind of covenant was a life-long covenant unto death. The life of each partner in the covenant was to be at the disposal of the other party should the need ever arise. God made a blood covenant with Abraham in Gen. 15:17,18. But Abraham slept through it. The
    flesh man, Abram, was unable to meet his part of the requirement of this covenant. I see this as that the covenant was between the "Seed" which would come forth from Abraham and God. This covenant was a covenant between God the
    Father and His Son Jesus Christ in which Abraham and all his descendents would be blessed. All the families of the earth that ever lived would be blessed through this covenant, God said.

    "It came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram…" (Gen. 15:17,18)

    But Abraham fell asleep. Isn’t that like our nature? We are not capable of keeping covenants with God. When Jesus was about to spill His blood to bring in the New Covenant, He asked His disciples to pray with Him. What did they do?
    They fell asleep. Paul spent a lot of time in his letters explaining the difference between grace and law, promise and law, man’s efforts versus God’s power. So then the New Covenant was the fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham.
    "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, ‘In you all the nations shall be blessed.’ So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham." (Gal. 3:8,9)

    As we have seen through the ages..man has been incapable of reflecting the perfection and Holiness of his creator..this creation was given laws they couldn't keep so that God could redeem them through his savior and give his holiness and righteousness to them...he did this through a member of the Godhead...thereby creating an
    everlasting covenant that can never be broken by any man. Another one-sided covenant (like the one He made with Abraham) through Jesus Christ.
    Grace is unmerited favor. There has never been any human that has met God's requirements of perfection (there is no one righteous, no not one)...except Jesus. Therefore all of creation is included in his Grace. No human has ever
    deserved Grace...have they? So in his Grace (his plan all along) He sent a sacrifical Lamb to take away the sin of the world and redeem all. No matter what any person believes or does..it is still God's Grace that redeems them..isn't
    it. Jesus has done all that was needed and saved man from ever having sin held against him. The issue of sin was finished at the cross of Christ and God then imputed righteousness in place of sin thereby reconciling his creation to
    himself. It is God's grace and his Grace alone that has done all this...certainly not our works or even our good intentions. If men are saved by
    works, is salvation of grace? So no man can boast.
     
    #15 GH, Sep 9, 2003
  16. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Ya Know GH, I was going to respond to all of your snippets of scripture with your questions, but upon reading them all in their context, it is plain to me that you are quite simply misreading them. CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING!
     
    #16 Yelsew, Sep 10, 2003
  17. GH

    GH New Member

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    No brother, I'm simply responding to your "all" question. That is the context.
     
    #17 GH, Sep 10, 2003
  18. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    No brother, I'm simply responding to your "all" question. That is the context. </font>[/QUOTE]Well your comment on 1 tim 2:26 is certainly from an out of context perspective.
    This scripture is not a prophesy that All will be saved, but rather that Jesus suffered for all as a form of ransom. In otherwords, his death is the Atonement for the sins of ALL, not the salvation of all.

    Same for John 12:47
    Jesus declaration not one of accomplishment but one of intent. It was Jesus established purpose to come and save the world, but even his own people rejected him. Did He fail? No, we failed to accept him.

    Same for Rom 5,
    That is if they believe in Jesus they live,if they reject Jesus they die the second death. Etc., Etc.

    [ September 10, 2003, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]
     
    #18 Yelsew, Sep 10, 2003
  19. GH

    GH New Member

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    No brother, I'm simply responding to your "all" question. That is the context. </font>[/QUOTE]Well your comment on 1 tim 2:26 is certainly from an out of context perspective.
    This scripture is not a prophesy that All will be saved, but rather that Jesus suffered for all as a form of ransom. In otherwords, his death is the Atonement for the sins of ALL, not the salvation of all.

    Same for John 12:47
    Jesus declaration not one of accomplishment but one of intent. It was Jesus established purpose to come and save the world, but even his own people rejected him. Did He fail? No, we failed to accept him.

    Same for Rom 5,
    That is if they believe in Jesus they live,if they reject Jesus they die the second death. Etc., Etc.     </font>[/QUOTE]Yelsew, did the Holy Spirt REVEAL THIS to you or are you just repeating what someone else taught you? Just wondering. There is a difference ya know.
     
    #19 GH, Sep 11, 2003
  20. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    To whom it may concern,

    just to let everyone know where Im coming from..

    just who will be included?

    I agree with GH post 100% as every scripture mentioned is interpreted as God intending His creation to be saved. [​IMG]

    how He does this and when..we do not know, yet we are representive proof of becoming part of the creator and he does not treat his creation impartially. either everyone ends up destroyed, or everyone ends up saved.

    Pro 11:1 A false balance [is] abomination to the LORD: but a just weight [is] his delight.

    God judges all of his creation justly and impartially. he treats none differently from one another. what we are witnessing today is a gradual process of salvation. a sort of falling domino effect. first jesus. then his firstfruits (church) and then the entire harvest. (the entire creation).
    this is Gods plan that his bride be a participating representative in the salvation of his creation.

    yet it is not going to be completed here. it will be in our existence in God's new earth and new heaven, after our physical death.

    why, because what we experience today has to be accompanied with proof held by the individual. wisdom and understanding. God allows everyone to aquire knowledge of himself by each human being. one at a time. and my reconing, we've reproduced possibly 200 billion people to be saved. and each person having to aquire enough knowledge of God to be equal with each other. then God can call himself "All in All"

    again another "faith promise".

    why?. because God calls himself infinite love and mercy and forgiveness. and his intentions is to prove this to his creation.

    just take some time to look at each of these scriptures. It referrs to all of Gods creation.
    again I say.

    God is not unjust to anyone.
    He is not partial. and He does not lie.

    we have "by faith" seen our own judgement and salvation of our souls. by the imparting of Gods spirit to us.

    proof positive "within ourselves" of the judgement and forgiveness of God towards ourselves and towards all. (in due time)

    How much proof do we need if all this is not enough?

    seems impossible by our carnal reasonings to accept these statements, dont it? :eek:

    thats why we accept Gods truths about himself and his plans "BY HIS FAITH".

    thanks, GH

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Me2

    [ September 11, 2003, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]
     
    #20 Me2, Sep 11, 2003
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