Deaconess

Kate, where does it say in Scripture that you must be ordained to be a deacon, or a pastor for that matter?

 

Nope!

I Timothy 3:8-13.

rufus0)

 

Thanks for your honesty and integrity Dr. Bob!

 

Does I Timothy 3 and Romans 16 contradict each other?

That would be a PROBLEM!

rufus

 

I don't see any contradiction at all. In fact, the 1 Timothy passage doesn't exclude women from being deacons. As I stated earlier, most baptist churches combine the role of elder and deacon together, thus making it unScriptural for a woman to hold that office, since it clearly states that an elder is to be male.

 

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Romans 16
1   I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
2   That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
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With all due respect, I do not see where Phebe's role was that of deacon. Or at least it wasn't indicated in this passage.
PJ

[ May 05, 2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: PJ ]

 

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Romans 16
1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
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With all due respect, I do not see where Phebe's role was that of deacon. Or at least it wasn't indicated in this passage. </font>[/QUOTE]Hello PJ, I don’t think I’ve had the pleasure of chatting with your before. Welcome to BaptistBoard!

The word in this passage that is translated as “servant” is literally “deacon” in Greek. (Our word “deacon” in English is a transliteration of the Greek word, much like the word “baptism”.) This word seems to specifically indicate an office of the church (“Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church”) and is exactly the same word used to describe the male deacons.

As Dr. Bob has illustrated, you can interpret this passage in several ways, but you really can’t get around the fact that Paul commends a female deacon in Romans 16 – that is, if you believe the Bible.

 

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Romans 16
1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
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Greetings, and thanks for the warm welcome ...

... though we must agree to disagree on this.
PJ

 

I hope you will become a regular poster.

Certainly. In spite of what some may say, Christians of faith, serious scholarship and trust of the scriptures often disagree on the interpretation of difficult passages.

We can all learn and be blessed if we are willing to ask questions and actually listen to each other.

 

Then where does the bible say you can do it, where was it done on the early church? I know no scripture that says a husband and wife were both ordained deacons. If not, then it is unscriptural. </font>[/QUOTE]The Bible doesn't even say that you "can" ordain men as deacons. That the term "deacon" is used is an unfortunate result of tranliterating rather than translating the original texts. Reading the direct translation of 1 Timothy 3 would show us that Paul was saying that "men, who would serve" and "likewise, the women" with the inference that these are women who also serve.

The only reason this is a problem today is that we have, in an unScriptural manner, endowed the diaconate with church authority. Remove the authority and there is simply no issue here.

 

rufus states:
12. Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Was Phoebe the husband of one wife?

I reaffirm. Does God's Word contradict itself?

rufus

 

rufus states:
12. Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Was Phoebe the husband of one wife?

I reaffirm. Does God's Word contradict itself?

rufus </font>[/QUOTE]No, God's Word does not contradict itself. Look at the actual language of the text. Then look at how this was translated. The proper translation (as opposed to transliteration) of verse twelve is "Let men who serve be the husbands of one wife."

Can anyone here tell me why some of us have such a devotion to transliterated terms?

 

rufus states:
12. Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Was Phoebe the husband of one wife?

I reaffirm. Does God's Word contradict itself?</font>[/QUOTE]If your interpretation is correct, then Paul contradicted himself in Romans 16:1. If you believe Paul was inconsistent in his theology, you are going to have quite a few difficulties with the New Testament epistles. I don't think you want to go down that road...

You have to deal with both texts (and actually some others) to figure out what Paul is teaching. Unfortunately that requires giving up our snappy answers and our prejudices and going to back to the Bible for information instead of just finding prooftexts to maintain the status quo.

 

[double post!]

 

Rufus,
Again I say that Paul didn't contradict himself. Also, husband of one wife actually is better interpreted as one woman man. The previous verse talks about women deacon's qualifications, so why would Paul immediately say women deacons must do this only to follow in the same breath with a catch-22 that omits women deacons. When understanding a passage, it helps to read the entire passage.
Kate, I'm still wondering if you have any evidence of Biblical ordaining of deacons or pastors.

 

Thanks for your post.

The previous verse talks about the wives of deacons, my friend, not about women deacons.

Phoebe was a "servant" of the church. But could not be a bona fide "deacon" without violating I Tim. 3 principles.

rufus 0)

 

Thanks rufus. I couldn't have stated it better myself
PJ

 

Thanks for your post.

The previous verse talks about the wives of deacons, my friend, not about women deacons. </font>[/QUOTE]Actually, your English translation talks about that. There is quite a bit of difference of opinion regarding the proper interpretation of the Greek passage regarding whether Paul is talking about the wives of deacons or female deacons. The translator of your text has made the decision for you, but please don’t confuse the decisions of the translators with the “word of God”.

Unfortunately for your argument it is pretty clear from the Greek text that Phoebe did hold the recognized office of deacon. Perhaps you should reexamine Paul’s teachings on women in the church. You know Paul recognized women as prophets (and should prophesy with their head covered) yet some believe Paul taught women should not say a word in the church. These seeming contradictions are not really contradictions when you do a very careful study of Paul’s writing.

Again I commend Dr. E. Earle Ellis’ book, “Pauline Theology: Ministry and Society”, for a balanced, scriptural examination of Paul’s writing on the role of women.