Syllogism - is it valid?

You missed the key. What was it God said of eating of the tree of life? Wasn't it that the eater gains eternal life? On bite and you're set for eternity!

 

Yes, we would be here. Why wouldn't we be here? </font>[/QUOTE]If A&E had eaten of the Tree of Life and become eternal, God would not have expelled them from the Garden because they sinned, they may not have procreated and bore children, etc, etc,

 

Yelsew, sometimes I honestly wonder if you have ever read the whole Bible.

Genesis 1:26-28 (ESV)
[26] Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
[27] So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
[28] And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

 

And if Adam hadn't sinned I am rather confident he would have eaten of it.

 

And if Adam hadn't sinned I am rather confident he would have eaten of it. </font>[/QUOTE]Guess we won't know what might have been!

 

Gods will to created every man woman and child in the image of christ was planned before the foundation of the world. (rom 11:36)(col 3:10)

and then adam sinned.

placing every man woman and child in death before they ever were physically created.

Gods plans were never intended to create man already completed in the image of christ. (rom 8:20)

But first to place man in death and allow them to work their way back into the image that God had fully intended man to eventually become. (col 1:15)

its not a good thing or bad thing that Adam "sinned". he was the first domino that started Gods plans, tumbling into motion.(1 co 15:22)

although in the telling of mans creation story. God interlaced our own individual story of reaching out to take the fruit "unto death" (gal 3:24) and then to reach out once again to receive the spirit of Life which is "Christ in us" (1 joh 4:16)

every man woman and child is destined to eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil (death, law) and then eat of the tree of life (eternal Life..Christ)


Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Me2

 

Yes, Felix, it is impossible to keep anything on topic here. But, hey, I'll play your little game and maybe we'll bring it back on topic.

Let's examine:

Okay, I don't really have a problem with this one, but l would suggest it be stated differently. How about this?

1. Anything people are responsible to God to believe must be true.

Using the word "responsible" instead of "bound" is just to get rid of the sort of confusion that was evidenced previously in this conversation. Will change it in the next statement, too...

Is this one really accurate? Is everyone responsible to believe that Christ died to save him, or is he responible to repent of his sins and cry out for the forgiveness offered through the cross to sinners who repent?

I would state this one this way:

2. All people are responsible to believe that Christ died to save repentant sinners.

(And then, of course, they are responsible to repent of their sins.)

Then, I suppose, #3 becomes:

3. Therefore, Christ died to save all repentant sinners.

The quibbling on #2 all boils down to this: Did Christ die with the intent of saving every single person on the earth, or did He did with the intent of saving every single person on the earth who believes (or repents)?

Do you think Christ died with the intent--or for the purpose--of saving unrepentent sinners?

 

Of course not! I believe Scripture teaches that Christ died with the intent to save the elect only! I do thank you for clearing this up! Basically the flaw is in #2; one can not say that he is responsible to believe that Christ died for him / instead, all are responsible to believe that Christ died for sinners. It makes sense!

What would be your exegesis on 1 John 2:2 / "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.?"

Thank you
Felix </font>[/QUOTE]But that is not what Scriptures say! Jesus died for the sins of the world. In otherwords it is the atonement for sin that Christ's death on the cross provided. By so doing, Jesus removed the penalty for sin which is death from all mankind for all time by his once-for-all atonement!

By paying the penalty for sin, Jesus removed the condemnation associated with sin from all mankind.

Did he die for sinners? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Sinners continue to sin even after coming to faith in Jesus. Man is no longer to be judged by sin because Jesus paid the price for our sins. We are to be judged based upon our faith alone, and not by our sins, nor by our works.

So who can have FAITH? It faith limited ONLY to the elect? Surely there must be a scripture that supports that idea if you believe it to be true.

Did Jesus die ONLY for the Elect? If you say yes, then you must have very strong scriptural support for so saying! Mind sharing that scripture with us?

I for one am ready for you to support your stand that Jesus died ONLY for the ELECT.

 

Jesus Christ died for all those who are delivered to death.

thats everybody.

or do you know of someone that didnt die at their appointed time?

1Co 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

thats everybody. death was forced to give up its dead.

so whats the lake of fire and brimstone. we know its NOT Christ enemy. all of his enemies were defeated. death being the last. (1 co 15:26)

so that the lake of fire must be associated with something of Life..(and life IS "in Christ")

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

everyone in death and hell is delivered into life and immortality.. how does God do this..Could it be planned that way ?

the death of "death" and "hell".

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

some think that we will not be in, or if in, never be removed from the lake of Fire.

the "image of Christ" is found in the Lake of Fire.

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Me2

 

thats everybody. death was forced to give up its dead.

so whats the lake of fire and brimstone. we know its NOT Christ enemy. all of his enemies were defeated. death being the last. (1 co 15:26)

so that the lake of fire must be associated with something of Life..(and life IS "in Christ")</font>[/QUOTE]You err in your thinking because you simply overlook in Revelation 20:14 the sentence "this is the SECOND death" It is true that death and hell and the sea do give up their dead, to the resurrection unto judgment. And those who have not faith in Jesus, thus NOT having their name written in the book of life,...well, lets let the Revelator tell you,

The lake of fire or burning lake is not "LIFE IN CHRIST", it is the FINAL DEATH for evil, and unbelievers. NOT EVERYONE SHALL HAVE LIFE ETERNAL! ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE FAITH WHILE LIVING THIS NATURAL LIFE GET THEIR NAME WRITTEN INTO THE BOOK OF LIFE.

Sorry, Me2, your doctrine don't float!

 

Yelsew,

If as you have said in your past posts are true to yourself.."man was not created to be eternal". then by your extrapolations... man does not live for an eternity in the lake of fire..

in fact he doesnt live past his judgement.
"without christ"...or, "outside christ".

unless he receives "eternal life" which is "in Christ"

just trying to clear up (in my mind) some of your thoughts...

Me2

 

Well hold on to your hat Me2, cause you do not have my thoughts straight at all. Let's look at scripture.

With the masters of evil and their demons in the lake of fire Revelation 20:15 comes into play, and that is where ALL whose names are not found in the book of life are also thrown into the Lake of Fire. And that is called the second death of Man, ("man" implied).

Following on,

Revelation 21:1-8 speaks of a NEW heaven and NEW earth, because "this present Heaven and earth have passed away. One is compelled to assume that means they no longer exist. Rev 21 does not mention the Lake of Fire, but if you look at Rev 20, you'll see that ALL the Evil ones and ALL the unbelievers were cast into the Lake of fire which was part of "this present heaven and earth" which passes away.

True, that is not proof that the Lake of Fire passes away, But with Evil captured and thrown into the Lake, and all unbelievers thrown in, and if the lake of fire passes away too, it is for ever and ever.

The Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15 is called, by all the leading theologians, "the Last Judgment". So there will be no judgment in the New Heaven and New Earth. That means there is no need for a Lake of fire, because there is no evil!

John 3:18 Jesus says that those who believe are not judged, so none of the believers will be judged, but do instead pass from the first death into life everlasting. Those who do not believe are judged by their unbelief, and face the Judgment throne of God and because their name is not found in the book of life they are cast into the Lake of Fire. The Book of life contains the names of all who believe and not just "the elect". I say that because there are references in scripture that say names are written and names blotted from the book. Granted, there is an elect and the elect shall be saved. Not the elect alone, but Whosoever believes.

The Lake of fire "passes away when this heaven and earth pass away BECAUSE evil was cast into the lake of fire

When God created man He did not create an eternal being, and that is why salvation is the FREE GIFT of God to those who believe.

NO, man was not created an eternal being. There are two deaths, and two resurrections. It is appointed unto man once to die, then the judgment. But according to Jesus, Believers face only one death the one that all mankind faces, then believers are passed from that death into Life everlasting while unbelievers die the first death to be resurrected into judgment and to be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. So man was not created to be eternal, but to those who have faith, God gives the FREE GIFT of Salvation from the second death into Eternal life.

So, Me2, I have given you a whole lot to think about and I pray that you do not reject it outright simply because it conflicts with your own beliefs. Please consider the things that are implied but not clearly stated in scripture. Please consider what you know about God's created man, and then ponder the implied factors that is not clearly stated.

 

Yelsew,

the lake of fire bring many images to mind.

but if you were to combine all participants you may get a better picture.

all peoples who are ever born are in this lake.

we can seperate them into two catagories.
those hurt and those not hurt.


all people who are not of the elect are IN THE LAKE. (easily recognized as those not recognizing Jesus as Lord)

we can imagine them drowning as if failing to attempt to walk on its surface.(mar 14:29-31)

and those of the "elect" walking not on its suface yet hovering above it "in the air".
these are the lakes "ministers of fire".
"witnesses of Gods resurrection Power".

preaching the truth to those drowning.

if you would like to think of these in the lake dying once (second time) again. be my guest. for they must accept "death" of their "will" before they are to be resurrected. (or Jesus as lord)
(Rom 10:9-10)

you see everyone who has experienced death are once dead and resurrected.

the second death is the death of the power of death.

or death of the fear of death.

or recognition that jesus has defeated death. we also recognize that the same power that resurrected him from death has also resurrected us.

that we as individuals recognize he is "lord", because we have evidence within our own lives by the resurrection of our own spirits into heavenly places. we have died by not struggling to save our own lives in the very lake we're delivered into.

Mat 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Rom 12:20 No, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head."

Heb 1:7 Of the angels he says, "Who makes his angels winds, and his servants flames of fire."

Jud 1:23 save some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

1Co 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Joh 15:6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

Rev 3:18 Therefore I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, that you may be rich, and white garments to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nakedness from being seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see.


You see Yelsew, Our Lord can be just as imaginative as you, yet his points towards saving those from their own fears. he's teaching them in the lake to swim. or in another sense hover.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first;
1Th 4:17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

I guess you could say the difference between being saved and not being saved lies on the surface tension of the lake of fire and brimstone.

those thrown in this lake is everybody yelsew.

who can swim in a lake of fire and brimstone?

and to die, you have to change your mind towards receiving the mercy of God. the very resurrection Power that raised up Jesus will raise every man woman and child in this lake.

the power that defeats death and hell and now, the lake of Fire.

If you've experienced dying to self. You would know just how hard it is to release yourself from the bonds of self-righteousness.
its drowning in the lake yelsew believing God will resurrect you alive again later.


Everybodies in the lake or will be.. and fortunately, some regards its only a metaphor.
As I do.

Me2

 

Well Me2, since you have just exausted the limits of credibility with me because you fail to understand the clear teachings of scripture, and because you do not make any attempts to stay within the context of scripture, I will not pursue this topic with you any further.

I do not live in fantasy land as you apparently do, and my imagination, though quite creative, cannot hold a candle to your wild beyond all reality imaginings.

There is no possibility that you and I can be spiritually related! My father in Heaven and your father who is hovering somewhere near the lake of fire are not the same God, never have been and never will be. So go your way, believe in what you will, enjoy your swim in the lake of fire, and from what the Holy Scriptures say It will be a very very long swim.

By the way, You don't need to look for Jesus to come and rescue you from that wonderful burning lake, Scriptures never place Jesus anywhere near that lake. He wouldn't be caught dead near it, and because of Him neither will I. You have it all to yourself and your like believing buddies!

 

Yelsew,

You make me laugh too hard...
Jesus is not near the lake of Fire..yeah right (hehehe)

so how would you explain the unexplainable? hhmmm...

Rev 1:14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.

Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Dont be to alarmed if I would confess I wasnt writing these things to catch your personal attention or growth.

like many things I write about.
Whew..right over your head.

those who actually understand these things dont need me to repeat the details. God has already revealed to them the understanding necessary to assemble the meanings. and there only can be one meaning yelsew.. its not complicated. Its hidden.

but your remarks are quite humorous.

when you have some free time ask others about understanding parables or mysteries or like we discuss too often. the revelation of John.
a vision made up of many, many symbols.

their locked! yelsew. their locked to those who havent experienced the understanding needed to explain their realities.

mysteries are experiences with God. you have to be a part of the experience to understand it. then you can unfold the mystery completely because it has become a part of you.

Just like spiritual death, resurrection and
judgement.

heres a challenge for you when you have the time..

do a word study on "mystery". see how many indivdual mysteries you can solve On Your Own..

Happy Hunting.

Me2

 

A word search in the King James version for the word Mystery reveals 22 occurances...ALL OF THEM IN THE NEW TESTAMENT!

Either the Kingdom of God did not exist in the Old Testament, or those old codgers had it all figured out and twernt no mysteries.

The New Testament descendents of the Old Testament codgers ain't as smart it seems, cause of all them mysteries they couldn't solve.

They certainly have fooled you too!

 

Go ahead blow your skirt up, It's not that it's over my head, it's simply that what you say does not pass the truth test, but merely bounces off and falls into the trash bin!

The very scriptures you post prove you wrong, but you fail to see the small words "like", "is if", "as", etc, which indicate the given description only depicts a similarity, and not the real thing.

Your command of the language is substantially inadequate. Kind of like "the lights are on but nobody's home".

 

Yelsew,

The kingdom of God was always present. They didnt have the capacity to see it. their spirit was carnal and could not see spiritual truths.

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

Jesus said it. Im just repeating It.

Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

notice again. the OT Codgers were not to hear the message of "Christ in them".
The were under the OT Covenant and the Law

much like the understanding of some today in the NT. the mystery of Christ being "in our Flesh" is a locked message even today to all but those who have ears to hear it and eyes to see it!.

Mar 4:22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.
Mar 4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Hear what you desire Yelsew. I only offer what I see and what I hear to you AS REFERENCE.
and i believe that everything I have said is truth. you judge for yourself.


Bye

Me2