Total Depravity

Word Traveler · Jul 15, 2003

Originally posted by Trotter:
Our view of "good" is tainted, warped by the fallen nature that all men are born into. Our "good" acts are graded against the evil that men do. As was stated above, our righteous deeds are as filthy rags in the sight of God.

If mankind were not totally depraved, then there would be the hope that we could earn eternal life by perfectly keeping the Law. It would also follow that Jesus would have died in vain, seeing how that man is not totally depraved and actually capable of earning the favor of God through the Law. And while we were at it, we could just rip out all those nasty references to sin and immorallity that tend to crop up between the rock-solid foundation of pulling ourselves up by our undepraved bootstraps.

What exactly am I trying to say? We can talk about "You may be a good person, but you still need to be saved" or "there are a lot of good people in hell", because in the eyes of man, those are true statements. Mankind does not want to, nor will he, admit that he is as bad off as he can possibly be. No one will stand and say, "I am evil through and through. I deserve death, hell, and judgement. I have broken God's Holy Law, and I have no excuse," unless the Holy Spirit has wrought His work in their heart. Such is the fallen nature of man.

God has all knowledge, and all time (past, present, and future) is open before Him. Nothing we say or do will ever surprise God. But God, in His wisdom and grace, allows man to freely choose to accept or reject His Son. God already knows who will, and who will not, accept this free gift of salvation, but He does not share that information with us. In so doing, God tells us to go into ALL the world, preaching the gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ. The parable of the sower shows how this works. The ground is not our concern, but the faithfull spreading of the sead is.

Yes, man is evil. Every man on the earth is bad to the core, and our evaluation of "good" is held up against that background of vileness, thus giving us a false sense of righteousness. But, before the great white throne of God, all will be revealed as it truly is. And what a sad day that will be for oh so many "good" and "moral" people!

In Christ,
Trotter
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Amen! And amen! In Christ, WT

Graceforever · Jul 15, 2003

Originally posted by Word Traveler:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Trotter:
Our view of "good" is tainted, warped by the fallen nature that all men are born into. Our "good" acts are graded against the evil that men do. As was stated above, our righteous deeds are as filthy rags in the sight of God.

If mankind were not totally depraved, then there would be the hope that we could earn eternal life by perfectly keeping the Law. It would also follow that Jesus would have died in vain, seeing how that man is not totally depraved and actually capable of earning the favor of God through the Law. And while we were at it, we could just rip out all those nasty references to sin and immorallity that tend to crop up between the rock-solid foundation of pulling ourselves up by our undepraved bootstraps.

What exactly am I trying to say? We can talk about "You may be a good person, but you still need to be saved" or "there are a lot of good people in hell", because in the eyes of man, those are true statements. Mankind does not want to, nor will he, admit that he is as bad off as he can possibly be. No one will stand and say, "I am evil through and through. I deserve death, hell, and judgement. I have broken God's Holy Law, and I have no excuse," unless the Holy Spirit has wrought His work in their heart. Such is the fallen nature of man.

God has all knowledge, and all time (past, present, and future) is open before Him. Nothing we say or do will ever surprise God. But God, in His wisdom and grace, allows man to freely choose to accept or reject His Son. God already knows who will, and who will not, accept this free gift of salvation, but He does not share that information with us. In so doing, God tells us to go into ALL the world, preaching the gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ. The parable of the sower shows how this works. The ground is not our concern, but the faithfull spreading of the sead is.

Yes, man is evil. Every man on the earth is bad to the core, and our evaluation of "good" is held up against that background of vileness, thus giving us a false sense of righteousness. But, before the great white throne of God, all will be revealed as it truly is. And what a sad day that will be for oh so many "good" and "moral" people!

In Christ,
Trotter
Click to expand...

Amen! And amen! In Christ, WT </font>[/QUOTE]I'll second that Amen..... Amen!

Bartimaeus · Jul 15, 2003

Acts 10:1-2
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Acts 10:22
And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

Without Christ yet, "devout", "just" and "God fearing".

Thanks -------Bart

Mark Osgatharp · Jul 15, 2003

Originally posted by Bartimaeus:
Acts 10:1-2
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Acts 10:22
And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

Without Christ yet, "devout", "just" and "God fearing".

Thanks -------Bart
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Bart,

The text says that Cornelious was devout and that he feared God. It does not say he was "just."

It says that his servants said he was just. They were not speaking in theological or terms but in terms of how they perceived Cornelious compared to other men.

This is a good example proving that having a "good report" among men does not make a man just, even though men may think so. Justification before God comes only through the new birth and therefore we know that it could not be said that Cornelious actually was a just man before his conversion.

The fact that he "feared God" proves nothing other than that he was afraid of God's judgment. This is very likely the reason he was religiously devout, hoping thereby to escape the judgement of God.

But Cornelious was still a totally depraved sinner just like every other man. He is a prime example of how we can smooth our sinfulness over in the sight of men while inwardly we are full of dead men's bones.

Mark Osgatharp

Bartimaeus · Jul 15, 2003

Here is the picture:
God by his divine plan works and draws me to Christ.
I eventually believe because He has ordained my position before the foundation of the world.
Now that I am saved I have the ability to choose to walk in the spirit or walk in the world.
Now that God in His sovereign will has saved me he leaves me to fight this unbelievable fight that I toil and travail in (with the flesh) until I die. Before I am saved I have no will, now that I am saved I have a will and struggle with staying right with God. Before I had no choice, now that God has worked in my heart, I have a choice and am miserable with the flesh. To do that which is good, I do not because I have a law in my members. Where is unconditional election now? Why am I not unconditionally elected to bliss and total happines in my life. What a joke on me. He saved me by His will and left me with mine.

Thanks ------Bart

Bartimaeus · Jul 15, 2003

"Why did God command Noah to build the ark and save himself and his house from being destroyed with the rest of men -all men, women, and children upon the face of the earth? Was Noah the only one elected to be spared? You will find the answer in God's Word! By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Heb 11:7"
Olliver B. Green

Thanks ------Bart

NarrowWay · Jul 15, 2003

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Before saying such things, may I point you to Arminian's actual doctrine? Many Calvinists would be surprised to believe that Arminius also believed in total depravity. A person cannot come to Christ until the Holy Spirit draws them. The difference is that Arminians believe that all men are drawn, as the first chapter of John says. After this enlightenment, man can choose one way or the other.
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The other important thing is that most Baptists don't really care about the theologies of Calvin or Arminius. I didn't have any knowledge about either one of these growing up in a SBC church. What we did believe very strongly is that the Holy Spirit plays an essential role in a person's coming to Christ and accepting Him as their Lord and Savior. Actually, I've never understood how this doctrine differs from Total Depravity. God in the form of the Holy Spirit is necessary for someone to come to Christ.

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