Have you considered why people go to hell?

"Jesus did indeed pay for all sin once and for all. The mere fact that He paid for the sin does not mean that everyone will take advantage of that payment. Are you advocating that those who go to hell have never had their sins paid for? If so, please give biblical support."

This, (attention Drew) is exactly my point. It seems that the payment is made, and people have something happen to them on acount of it (some kind of prevenient grace or other as Arminians posit quite without their having to "take advatage of it. It just happens. But on the issue of salvation itself one muct take advantage. Where is this distinction between merits of the Cross (some have to be taken advantage of, some just accrue without such action on the part of the individual) taught in Scripture? It isn't!

 

If unbelief is not sin, then you have people getting to heaven by their own merit -- the merit of their belief. No matter how much you deny it, you can't get away from it. For you, the difference between heaven and hell is something people do. I reject that from top to bottom and I can be consistent with it.

John 3:16 Whosoever believeth in Him would not perish.

Jesus clearly states that belief is the one action (act of our will) that will save us. Ofcourse I agree with scripture when it says not of works but belief is not a work but rather a response to the work Christ has already done , His atoning death on the cross. If you claim that my belief in Christ is a works gospel then I must strongly dissagree. Have I misunderstood?
Murph

 

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ;

I apologize for being rather obtuse, and I deeply appreciate your wisdom and understanding. It simplifies the Gospel when one understands that the atonement was universal, that Christ's death covered ALL of the sins of ALL, past, present, and future.

What is necessary is to receive the propitiation which has already been done for everybody, and when we receive Christ our names are written into the Lambs Book of Life, and our destination becomes Heaven instead of hell. Those that refuse Christ, do not get their names written in the Lambs Book of Life, and their destination remains hell even though their sins have already been forgiven.

The sins of those who are not able to mentally comprehend(pre-born, young children, mentally incapacitated), have already been forgiven, and Jesus writes their names in the Lambs Book of Life on their behalf? (age of accountability)

I hope that I am getting a handle on this, for this is a whole new angle on justification, for me. I was understanding that only those who came to Christ had their sins forgiven. This is very subtle but so absolutely critical. All have been pardoned but only those who take up their pardon will enter in.

May God so bless His precious children.

A servant of Christ,
Drew

 

Drew,

Here's where what you wrote would disagree with what is the traditional (or orthodox) view of general or universal atonement:

The traditional view of universal atonement sees the actual pardon only coming through faith. See below:

See the difference?

BTW, Romans 3 tells us that God displayed Christ as a propitiation in his blood through faith. Because of verses like this, both traditional universal and traditional limited atonement see the applied benefits of the atonement as being specific to believers.

[ December 30, 2002, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

It is also worth noting that a belief in universal atonement does not require a belief in Arminianism (or conversely it does not preclude a belief in Calvanism).

4Pt Calvanists hold to Universal Atonement and yet hold that faith comes only as a sovereign gift of God.

 

Eph. 2:
8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 10:
9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out...

Joshua C.
Heb 10:31

 

I am not sure what you mean by posting this Johua C, but I know what I see when I read it.

It says that the idea that the Cross did something to huamnity (makign them "worthy" or to some such other euphemism which basically denies original sin) is false. After all, the sins in view cannot possibly be only those post crucifixion.

 

I do not see this difference in Scripture and you have given no reference for it here. When murder is committed, that person is a murderer. That state will not change.

The point is that murder is one of hte things in Rev 21:8 for which people go to hell, listed among other things. That verse, which just came to my mind, is an even more direct refutation of your position.

Pastor Bob,

The question is generally framed this way: Did the death of Christ accomplish something or simply make it possible? I believe the former (1 John 2:2). I believe that it actually propitiated the wrath of God. If, as you believe, it did that for everyone, then why is the wrath of God poured out? Was Christ's sacrifice not good enough? I believe that is a bind that renders your position untenable. Either Christ paid for sin or man must pay for it himself. If Christ paid for the sins of those who go to hell, then hell is the unjust punishment of an unjust God who, having punished his son for the unbeliever's sin now turns and punishes the unbeliever for his own sin. That puts God in a position of demanding double payment, a demand which is unjust. The more biblical approach is to recognize the sufficiency/efficiency distinction. It keeps us from having to deny that sin sends people to hell, from making God unjust, and it allows us to recognize that Christ's payment is infinite. This is consistent with all of Scripture and hence it has been the predominant Christian position for many many years.

 

I do believe that Christ's sacrificial death did indeed pay for the sins of the whole world. I John 2:2, John 1:29, I John 4:14.

When Jesus said "It is finished!" His work was complete. Redemption had been secured for all who will accept the payment. Christ will not force Himself on anyone; we come to Him of our own free will and volition.

The wrath of God is poured out on those who refuse to accept the perfect sacrifice for sins. Christ payed an awful price (I Cor. 6:20) for our salvation. When one treads upon the grace of God, he incurs the wrath of God.

When man dies and goes to hell, he is not paying for his sins, he is merely facing the penalty for his sins because he refused to accept the pardon that was offered him. Col. 1:14

Sin does not send people to hell; we are all sinners. Not one of us will die without sin. Why can I go to heaven and another go to hell? Because I have accepted the atonement for my sins. Romans 5:11

If I want to go to a play, I must purchase the ticket for admission. If I do not have the price of admission, I cannot get in. If the admission is $15.00 and I only have $5.00, I am not getting in.

If you had $7.00, although you have more than me, you're still not getting in. Even if we tried to pool our resources, we'd still come up short.

Suppose now a wealthy man came along and saw our dilemma. He offered to pay the price for our admission and gave the ticket man $30.00. I wanted to see the play so I went on in and took advantage of the man's grace. You, on the other hand, decide that you're not going to accept this charity and you refuse to go in.

The fault is your's, not the one who secured the payment. He could not force you to go in, he could only provide you with the means. It has to be up to you to accept it. It you choose not to, you invite the consequences of your decision. In this case it is missing a play; in life it is missing heaven.

Yes, the wages of sin is death; physical death. The wages of refusing to accept Christ is spiritual, second death. Rev 21:8 It is not because Christ's payment is insufficient; it is because some refuse to accept it.

 

"The wrath of God is poured out on those who refuse to accept the perfect sacrifice for sins."

That doesn't square with Romans 1:18-20 at all.

 

I dissagree PTW, while I agree that unbelief is sin it is not just the same as murder. Any sin can be forgiven except blasphemeing the Holy Ghost so murder can be forgiven, but the sin of unbelief cannot be forgiven for if one dyes in unbelief there is no forgiveness for their sins.
Although a murderer I can have that sin forgiven if I believe but if I am an unbeliever I am lost.
Murph

 

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 1:18-20 (KJV)

These verses prove exactly that point vs 18
says "who hold the truth in unrighteousnes" I think it is saying that God has revealed Himself and if anyone fails to recognize Him the wrath will come to them. What do you think it means?

Murph

 

Hey Murph!

"These verses prove exactly that point vs 18
says "who hold the truth in unrighteousnes" I think it is saying that God has revealed Himself and if anyone fails to recognize Him the wrath will come to them. What do you think it means?"

Exactly what it says in its context. Look at what follows. And I don't think Paul was being exhaustive in his list of prblems but illustrative. At any rate it is impossible to confine it to just "unbelief" unless your prepared to say tha unbelief encompasses all these other sins. But that would not serve the argument that Bob and Helen are trying to make.

 

Wow! PTW, I didn't realize your question was so difficult. It seems pretty straightforward and so does the answer that you have given. I think the forgotten aspect of the discussion so far is that it's all about God. He is absolutely and totally holy. Man is absolutely and totally sinful and both unwilling and unable to do anything about his sinfulness. KEY POINT: Man is not a sinner because he sins, man sins because he is a sinner. It's his nature. This sin nature is passed to all people and thus, all people deserve hell. It is only by God's grace that any are saved. All are born condemned (JN. 3:36) because they are sinners and are thus destined for hell unless and until He intervenes. It is not our sins that condemn us, but our sin nature from which those sins spring.

 

I will quote West Minister catechism Q.18.

What is sinful about man's sinful condition?

The sinfulness of that fallen condition is twofold. First,in what is commonly called original sin,there is the guilt of Adam's first sin with its lack of original righteousness and the corruption of his whole nature. Second are all the acts of disobedience that come from original sin.

This pretty much sums it up to me. Man has a will,but the original sin nature has damaged the will so that we choose wrong. We make bad choices to do wrong because we are sinful...it is only an act of God to have that nature forgiven and laid to rest through our redeemer.