Have you considered why people go to hell?

Murph,

I think you and Bob should get together. You seem to diagree as to what is being said.

Some points:

1) "In my opinion the blaspheming of the HS can very easily be interpreted to mean the denying of Jesus."

But unbelief is not simply the specific denying of Jesus. All people are unbelievers prior to faith. Those who deny Jesus simply have more things in which they stand in unbelief of. It is thus as Pastor Larry also pointed out, impossible for unbelief to be he unpardonable sin. IMO your reasoning is incorrect. That the sin is ascribing the work ofthe Spirit to Satan is a far more likely answer given the context.

"I read no one on this thread preaching universalism, nor teaching that you must reject Christ to earn hell."

Then you haven't been reading.

" John 3:18 has already been quoted and proves that failing to believe = condemnation."

So what? That hasn't been the bone of contention has it?

"Furthermore I feel this entire discussion is over the way we describe the process of seperation from God, while some may argue that sin is what sends us to hell, others say that it is unbelief that sends us to hell."

I respect your opinion. It s just as valid as mine.

"I sincerely hope that anyone else who feels it necessary to call anyone here a universalist or say they are teaching a works doctrine or twisting scripture has much more evidence than has been posted to validate their claims."

Murph you were doing well until this. No one has said anyone is a universalist, only that what they have said leads in that direction whether they go all the way or not. No one has done any twisting of anyone's statements either. I would suggest you not poison the discussion with insinuations to that effect.

If you don't understand the crux of the issue perhaps it would be best that you refrain from commenting on motives and methods until you do. Feel free to ask for clarifications however.

 

I feel I understand it quite well thank you.
Murph

 

Murph***PTW let's look at the text you listed:
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works , by the things which were written in the books.
Judged according to their works yes!!! but why are they at the Great white throne to begin with?</font>[/QUOTE]Consider Revelation 21:8 which describes those sins for which people are cast into the lake of fire:

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

This was your quote and I ofcourse agree because it is scripture but you must remember that Rev 21:8 follows after the great white throne and even you must agree that the one difference between those standing at the great white throne and those exempt from it is the matter of unbelief. If they have believed in Christ they aren't there to be judged according to their works but if they have not believed then they are judged by their works and cast into the lake of fire. So do you still say that unbelief is not the predominate factor in why someone goes to hell?
Murph

 

Murph,

"I feel I understand it quite well thank you."

Then you should allow yourself to stand corrected. Even in the quotes you provide you do not se anyone being accused of being a universalist. Nor do you see anyone twisitng scripture. Nor do you see mention of anyone teaching a works doctrine.

Here is what you DO see:

"I know Bob and Helen do not believe in universalism. That is where their thinking leads to even if they don't recognize it as such."

This is a claim that their doctrine, logically extended, leds to universalism. Not the same thing at all.

"If you believe that all sin except the sin of unbelief was paid for, then you must demonstrate that from Scripture as well as present a reasonable theological reason why unbelief was omitted from the atonement and why it is not "merit" on the part of the believer who receives salvation from something other than the atonement of Christ."

This is not an acusation of works theology, but again, a statement that says that the logical implication of the belief is to give a place to merit. It is not a statement that people actually hod to works salvation, but that the soteriology, logially extended leads intha direction. Indeed, it is a call to explain how that logical extension does not actually apply.

So Murph, consider yourself corrected. I trust that this helps clarify things for you.

 

I agree that being born a sinner does indeed condemn him; but it merely condemns him to death.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; (KJV)
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (KJV)</font>[/QUOTE]Mathew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

That is what we are saved from.

If the only condemnation from sin is physical death, how can one say that Christ's death was efficacious? It seems that we are still under the power of sin.

edited to add: [Nevermind. I posted this before I read page four, in which the quote above was negated. ]

[ January 01, 2003, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

Aaron...Oh,Good...you are here...I thought you had disappeared from the BB,so glad you are still here!

Sorry...off topic!

[ January 01, 2003, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Molly ]

 

Wow, did I start something here? Sorry for being gone for so long, but I forgot that I posted here.

When I stated :

I meant "dis" belief. A person cannot be forced into believing in Christ, and sin is forgiven when that person believes it to be forgiven. That is why people go to hell. They refuse to believe Christ's purpose. When one believes, then all is forgiven, and they are heaven bound.
The White thrown judgement comes in the end, those in the book of life and those not in it.
Those that are not in it are condemned already, no room to change their unbelief.

 

I was just weary of defending my position on music continuously. Even soldiers are allowed personal leave every now and then. I thought I should lay down my sword and relax a while.

 

"I suppose that your words above illustrate what I am trying to say. #1 While I agree that the quotes I used were not flaming attacks I wonder why any on the other side felt it necessary to elude to claims of twisting of scripture, gospel of merit or universalism."

Let me get this straight, you put more stock in what was NOT said than in what WAS said? You are reacting more to potential motives than stated ones?

Murph, I hope you will understand when I say that it is hardly fair and just to judge posts based on what they don't say.

And it is hardly charitable the way you do it. The answer to "why" could as easily be "becuase that isn't what we are saying." Why not assume the best as per 1Co 13?

"#2 Your comments about the logical direction a persons thoughts lead to should be noted that while that may be your logical conclusion it is not necessarily mine."

It has been asked how these things DO NOT lead to that conclusion logically. That is fair, do you not think? It is not about how far you take them, but how far they can be taken logically without distorting the premises. So it is not about what thes folks believe as such, but about the impications of those beliefs which they may or may not have explored.

 

Right!

[ January 04, 2003, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: Kal-El ]

 

Exactly

 

Exactly </font>[/QUOTE]I would like to see a quote where someone has said otherwise on this thread, if it has been given I have missed it.
Murph

 

I said it before, and I say it again, the two examples you just provided are identical and mean the same thing! Even if you would be the type who is splitting hair, the answer and the result of both analysis is the same. There is no difference.

 

I thought all human beings were condemded to spend an eternity seperated from God...if they did not chose to accept the gift of salvation...and be saved from that eternal damnation by Christ's payment of that sin debt for us?