Have you considered why people go to hell?

Murph,

This could very well lapse into a calvanism arminianism thing. I can see where those broader issues come into play.

But this seems to be more a discussion of the NATURE of the atonement, rather than its extent which is typicaly at the heart of the cal-arm debates.

 

Folks,

In all these seven pages, the verses that attribute hell directly to sin (e.g. Rev 21:8; Rev 20:11-15) have never been answered. Helen made a half-hearted attempt and then ducked out (probably wisely ).

Several points should be made:
1. People are born in a state of sin (Ps 51; a host of other verses).
2. That sin has brought condemnation (John 3).
3. That sin, unless repented of, will bring eternal condemnation (John 3).

Unbelief is still a sin no matter which way you cut it, and if Christ died for all sin effectively (as HElen and Bob and others say), then he died for unbelief and it is unjust to send people to hell. You might argue that Christ's atonement merely made the possibility of forgiveness but that would contradict 1 John 2:2 that says his atonement actually propitiated sins (not just made propitiaton possible). If God's wrath was satisfied for all men without exception, then no one will be in hell. That is a contradiction of clear Scripture.

 

See, Murph, in this quote you are making the same point we are. According to what you say here the benefits of the atonement are only applied to those who receive and believe. The payment for sin is not applied to those who don't believe, therefore they are still in their sin and they will still pay for their sin in hell.

Others seem to be having the atonement actually applied to everyone, believers and unbelievers alike. Statements like "everyone is pardoned" or "everyone is forgiven" or "everyone's sins are taken away" seem to involve not just a universal provision, but a universal application of the atonement. Hence, the remarks about universalism....

 

Murph,

Are you saying that those who don't believe have their sins FORGIVEN?

[ January 05, 2003, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

Hell was created for Lucifer and the third that followed him. Man was not created for hell, but to have eternal life with God. God knows His creation which include You and I,and has the foreknowledge of mans condition which was eternal seperation from Him. Man did not go up to meet God, God came down to be with His own creation (You and I). He died 2,000 years ago. The door is open, may one make take the right path. The question that Jesus asked 2,000 years ago is still asked by Him to ALL today; Whom do you say that I AM?

 

thank you, gtf. While Pastor Larry thinks I ducked out, the truth is I get tired of saying the same old thing. Once I have said something, why say it again?

Yes we are born with a sin nature. No, we are not accountable for anyone's sins but our own, including Adam's. Yes, we are affected by the sins of many others, including Adam's, but we are only accountable for our own.

Yes, sin of all kinds has consequences for us. And we also suffer the consequences of the sins of others.

All that being said, consequences are different from punishment.

No one goes to hell for their sins. No one. Hell was not created for man, sinner or not. In fact, hell was not CREATED at all. It was made. It was made AFTER creation, because Satan was originally the guardian angel of Eden (Ez. 28)-- which is probably one reason Eve believed him. That means hell had not been made yet when Adam and Eve were first in Eden.

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On the other hand, Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world -- before hell was created. He was slain for the sins of men -- all men. Hebrews 2 makes that very plain, as well as the fact that we cannot escape if we IGNORE the salvation offered. That means it CAN be ignored, and, in fact, most do.

Jesus Himself stated the reason men are condemned is because of unbelief, not because of sin:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already BECAUSE HE HAS NOT BELIEVED IN THE NAME OF THE GOD'S ONE AND ONLY SON. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deed were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, AND WILL NOT COME INTO THE LIGHT FOR FEAR that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.

Jesus makes several points here which wrap up the Gospel in pretty tight package:

1. God loved the world. The same world the Light came into. The whole world.

2. Belief in the Son of God yields eternal life. Because of the Son's work, by the way, not because of anything any sinner ever did.

3. The unbeliever is condemned not because of his sin, but because of unbelief.

4. Men's deeds are evil.

5. Nevertheless, some prefer truth, even though their deeds may be evil. cf to Romans 1, that there are those who suppress the truth, thus procuring God's wrath on them, and this indicates that there are those who don't suppress the truth.

6. Those who prefer the truth will come into the light.

This is exactly what I have tried to present for some time now. Truth is the issue, not sin. All sin is atoned for. Period. That is primarily because all sin is an insult to God and no insult to God will stand through eternity. Ain't gonna happen. Can't happen. No insult is eternal. God took care of that on the Cross.

Thus all that is left is to prefer the truth and believe. Those who prefer the truth will be led by the Father to Christ, as He IS the Truth, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. This is such a primary issue in the Bible that it is hard to believe people continue to miss it.

One can either prefer the wickedness of his own sins, thus refusing the truth and refusing Christ, or one can prefer the truth and be led to Christ. Either/or.

The argument has been made that unbelief is a sin. Let's accept that. It is nevertheless atoned for. However unbelief is also a state of existence, just as belief is. It is not an action which is done and completed. It is a condition of the heart, and if one dies with one's heart in that condition, there is only hell to go to. It is not a matter of being unforgiven or unatoned for; it is a matter of refusing the truth of that Sacrifice and persisting in walking away from it through one's life.

If the difference between and action and a condition is too difficult to understand, please consider the difference between being a girl, which I am, and my actions as a daughter or sister or mother or wife, all of which are offshoots of being a girl but separate from it as the actions are over and finished but I will continue being a girl. Unbelief thus leads to sin and may be considered a sin in and of itself, but it is also primarily a condition in which one lives as one lives and acts accordingly.

And it is that condition of the heart which will determine who goes to hell and who does not. At least, that's what Jesus said.

Now, if you will excuse me, I will duck out for a couple of weeks due to surgery and recovery. I would probably duck out anyway, because how many times can this be said? Every single thing here is easily referenced in the Bible; and I presume those who are arguing theology will know exactly where each point is. I pointed out Ezekiel and Romans 1 for convenience, and quoted John 3:16+

If men go to hell for their sins, then Jesus' work on the cross was ineffectual. And that is blasphemy.

(lines edited to remove insult)

[ January 06, 2003, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Kal-El ]

 

Tell me about it. Why do I keep trying? You are not even paying attention.

You have not dealt with verses such as Rev 21:8 that explicitly contradict your view. That is all I am trying to get you to do ... deal with the text. It says your view is inadequate.

The Bible commands belief. To not believe is disboedience and therefore sin. YOu have therefore contradicted yourself unless you say that unbelief is not sin (which contradicts the Bible). This is amazingly simple Helen. You have nothing to gain from your side of the argument. Why persist in it?

You are the one who has made the work of Christ in effectual by denying its saving power. YOu have simply made it a saving possibility. I believe the sacrifice of Christ effectively paid for sin. You believe it was not sufficient for all sin but only for all sin but unbelief. It is your position that comes very close to blaspheming the work of Christ. It is your position that denies the plainly stated position of Scripture. Men go to hell for their sins because Scripture says so. That's good enough for me.

 

Pastor Larry,
I think anyone not fully submersed in Calvinism will see you have badly misstated the meaning of my posts.

 

Mat 25:31-46 deals with Christ separating the saved from the unsaved and His sending the unsaved into eternal torment. Jesus says here that is because of sins of omission. Unbelief is not mentioned at all.

Titus 3:11 says a man is perverted and sinning, being self-condemned. Unbelief is not mentioned.

Romans 2:1 says that those who judge condemn themselves being guilty of the same sins. Unbelief is not mentioned.

Romans 3:23 list sin as the reason we fall short of God's glory which leads to our need for justification in vs 24. Unbelief is not mentioned.

2 Corinthians 11:15 says Satan's servants end will be according to their deeds. Unbelief is not mentioned.

If unbelief is the reason people are sent to hell, what is the meaning of Christ's teaching to to cut off a foot or hand and to pluck out an eye if they cause sin leading to everlasting fire? Is unbelief a function of the eyes, hands, or feet?

 

When someone disagreees with you, it is not always because of Calvinism. That is your "out" but it still doesn't deal with the text. I presented some very clear biblical contradictions of your thinking.

1. Belief is commanded; hence, unbelief is sin. If all sins were paid for, then the sin of unbelief must be as well. If the sin of unbelief was not paid for, then not all sins were paid for. If people go to hell for unbelief, it is "sin" for which they go to hell. You must make a distinction between types of sin that Scripture doesn't make.

2. Rev 21:8; Rev 20:11-15, and other passages make clear that people go to hell for sin. Hence, you are in direct contradiction to the revealed word of God in Scripture.

This is not in anyway about Calvinism. That has no bearing here whatsoever. Arminians believe that man goes to hell for his sin.

I realize this is strong and I don't mean to kick a lady when she's down. I hope you recover very quickly ... becuase I want to see your answer to these ends that you left untied ... Seriously, I do hope you have a speedy recovery ... but I also hope that you will reckon with some of these things.

 

Lets take a look a couple of passages.

Ezekiel 36
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes , and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

and

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works , which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

As you see Jesus has work lind up for us after we get saved. our nature changes see the Ezekiel passage. our want to changes. see Rom 7.

We have not become perfect but by the power of Christ we are getting (if you are in Christ).

the sin is blotted out.

I have never seen a passage that say you are going to hell because of you unbelief. Even John 3:36

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

It did not say it but the wrath there.

it is sin that but the wrath there.
and Yes! unbelief is one of those sins.

but as you can see it is not the only sin.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The devils believe and are not saved.
There are people who belive and are not save.

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Saint John

 

Let me approach this from a slightly different angle. The reason people die and go to hell is because they have never had the righteousness of Christ imputed to them. Abraham had righteousness imputed to him. Why? Because he believed God.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. (KJV)

What is the result of not believing God? No righteousness imputed. Why no righteousness imputed? Unbelief. What can condemn a person to hell? Only the sin of unbelief.