Will American Christians survive if there is no rapture?

Do you not think it interesting that the majority of conservative New Testament and Theological scholarship does not believe in a pre-trib rapture, yet the majority of American Christians do? I am in the category of those who do not believe in a pre-trib rapture. I believe that Scripture does not teach this. So my question is 1)why do we have this belief that the majority of those who have studied Scripture longer than the typical American Christian does not have, and 2) what will happen to American Christianity if there is no pre-trib rapture and this is found to be a false teaching? Will there be a great turning away under intense persecution? Also why are pre-millennials not worried about the persecution of all nations predicted in Matthew 24 before the return of Christ? My personal opinion is that American Christianity will fall like a rock if there is not rapture. Many will turn away, the rest will be killed. Are you ready, just in case you are wrong?

DR

 

I am encouraged somewhat by your posts, though most of you answered for yourself and not for the general population of those who say that they are Christians. In response to what Sue said, yes, I am very skeptical about the "Christian" society at large. I believe that the majority of people who sit in our churches today are not saved. I see Lordship as the only type of salvation. You either come fully, or you don't come at all.

As for the statistics you asked for. I will say that it is an informal study done by some friends of mine and I, who have looked at contemporary scholarship and judged based on certain books by key Baptist, Presbyterian, and Methodist scholars. As far as the ecumenical seminaries go Trinity, Westminster, Denver, Regent, Reformed, Gordon-Conwell, Beeson, and Wheaton have basically no one in their Biblical Studies or Theology dept's who believe in a pre-trib rapture. Even some progressive dispensationals at Dallas do not (maybe all of them now). In the Southern baptist seminaries, I cannot speak completely for them, but there are no pre-tribers at New Orleans and Southwestern in the same departments. I would assume with Southern's theological slant, that there are none at Southern. That leaves Southeastern to only guess at. But since New Orleans and Southwestern are the two largest seminaries in the world, it would be easy to declare that the majority of the evangelical scholarly world does not believe in this viewpoint. Most are amillennial, historical premillennials (which means post-trib rapture), or preterists (who say that all the prophecy has been fulfilled in the first 2 centuries after Christ). As for Jews, they are still looking for the Messiah and Catholics generally are spread across the field on their views. However, I said conservative scholarship and they are not evangelicals, so I would regard them as neither conservative, nor scholarly (though there are many Catholics who are very erudite in various Scriptural matters).

If you want to check it out, just go to the Seminaries discussion board and ask the seminary students at the various places what they are being taught in that regard. You might be surprised at what you find.

In conclusion, I agree with Timothy and think we must give up this erroneous doctrine before we lull the church to sleep. All of the prophesies of Revelation and Matthew were fulfilled at least once, at the time of the original readers. None of them experienced a Rapture, and we should not believe, even if their is a double-fulfillment of those prophecies (which historical pre-millennials do generally believe), that there will be one in our future to spare us from suffering in the present age.

Two questions to think on:
1) If the church has been persecuted for 2000 years in some way, why do we believe as Americans that we will be spared before the full force of tribulation worldwide is applied?
2) Is the rapture what many American Christians put their hope in and if so, could this cause a great turning away, as Timothy and others suggested if it does not happen?

Lastly, Peter says, "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome of those who do not obey the gospel of God? And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the Godless man and the sinner? Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right" (1 Peter 4:17-19).

Peter here is talking about a coming judgment of tribulation that would befall them, not a heavenly one. He is still talking to us today about a coming judgment. I believe tribulation is for the Church (the new Israel), and it is the judgment meant for the household of God. Beware that you do not put your hope in a false desire to not be persecuted. Even if there is a pre-trib rapture, it will only come after a full scale persecution of the Church. For Jesus Himself has said that all nations will hear and all nations will be persecuted before these things come to pass (See Matthew 24).

Just hoping to exhort,
WE HOLLA
dr

 

Audrey,

First of all I am not suggesting that it is illogical to believe in a rapture. However, the verses that are used to promote this idea are generally found not only in Revelation, but in Matthew 24 as well. In the Matthew passage, if taken with a view toward premillennialism, seem to suggest that there must be two requirements for the occurrence of the end of the age. Those would be that the gospel goes out to all nations (literally, people groups). There are still about 1700 completely unreached people groups. And there will be persecution in every land. This word seems to suggest a physical persecution. If this is a double fulfillment (for this entire passage has been fulfilled once in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem), then if you study the first occurrence of the fulfillment you will find a gruesome path of destruction laid by the Romans toward the Jews and some Christians. We in America should expect nothing less.

Why did I highlight America? Well, it is a very different Christianity here than in persecuted and restricted nations. That is not to make a division, that is just fact. People lay down their lives every day in many foreign countries, unlike America, where we live high on the hog. This will cause problems is persecution comes fast and hard.

Finally, I do agree with Lordship salvation. I am an advocate of McArthur's book, The Gospel According to Jesus. Have you read it? Good stuff there if you haven't.

WE HOLLA
dr

 

Andrey (I realized the mistake immediately after sending it),

I am not Anti-American, but I am anti-American in regard to our Christian misconceptions, tunnel vision, and egotism. For far too long, Americans and all Western Christians in general have lived without persecution, but that day is coming to a close. As for your mention of Canada, there is already a distain mounting for Christianity there that is more prevalent and widespread than in America. It is true that there is revival going on in Mexico and Latin America, however.
dr

 

Ok, let me address some of the issues that a few of you have brought up. First, for my friend Andrey who thinks I am bitter and have much angst for others, I would say listen to John Piper. He is one of the most loving, most compassionate ministers in the Church today (while being one of the most scholarly and well respected academically -- he has published about 20 books from top publishing houses and you can visit his website at www.desiringgod.org). He longs for the persecution of the church to begin so that the true believers can be revealed and so Christ can come again (Matthew 24). This is why I too long for persecution. It is not because I am bitter, but through persecution do we see the power of the Holy Spirit manifested more clearly and more necessarily. The book Brent mentioned makes that clear (Fox's book of Marytrs or the Voice of the Martyrs book, Jesus Freaks). Also consider Scripture, first it (the NT) was written almost entirely to a people who were persecuted. Secondly, there are many poignant statements that look favorably upon persecution and place it as a great gift from God. Jesus spoke of this often to the Disciples. Peter in 1 Peter 4:14 says, "If you are reviled for the name of Christ, YOU ARE BLESSED, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you" (emphasis added). Two things to point out about this, the context is of a physical pain nature for the group to whom Peter is writing is suffering under the persecution of Domitian or Nero, both of which were extremely harsh in their means of punishing Christians. Secondly, Peter makes persecution out to be joyful. It is as though he is saying, "Come church, be persecuted, for in doing so you are blessed beyond what you could be without it." Another Scripture to be mentioned is Colossians 1:24. Here Paul rejoices in his sufferings because he is able to "fill up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions." What is important about that is that Christ's afflictions lack something. What is it? Certainly it is not their worth, but rather it is the personal presentation of that suffering to others. Other people can come to Christ only through an observation of your sufferings. In Pilgrim's Progress John Bunyan paints this in how one is killed in the town of Vanity and two come to Christ through witness this. I could go on and on, but I will give you one more reason why I look forward to the suffering and persecution of the Church. It is because of Revelation 6 -- the Fifth seal. The martyrs come out from under the throne and groan for vengence. They are told, "that they should wait a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also." It is obvious from this text that there is a number of martyrs needed to be killed in order for God to avenge them and thereby come and destroy all His enemies and set up His eternal reign. I long for that day to come quickly. Many have no problem praying for the day of the Lord to come and rapture them, but what about the day of the Lord to come and bring forth persecution as in 1 Peter 4:17, "It is time for judgement to begin with the household of God, and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the Gospel of God." So because of those Scriptures, I say come, persecution, come and Church rise up and face the coming dawn, prepare the Way of the Lord by suffering righteously for Him, so that at His coming we may lift our eyes and not shrink back and be ashamed.

Ok, to Artimaeus, first of all I would say that we cannot say that just because we founded this country on Christian principles that we deserve not to suffer or even that because of that is is God's will that we not suffer. Actually many of our principles were not Christian, but deistic from Jefferson and Franklin who were certainly not Christians, but were moralists. Still today they suffer in hell for not recognizing the name of Christ. I would rather say that yes, it is God's will that Americans would not suffer for the past 150 years for the name of Christ. Yet, that does not mean that we should not recognize that this time is coming to a close and that we are beginning to run head first toward a day of reckoning that will bring AMerican Christianity to its knees (literally). We have already seen it begin in Canada.
Secondly, I do not need to read anymore eschatology from anyone else to understand that we live with the idea that the rapture will in some way save us from persecution. It is all over the pages of Left Behind, Hagee's books and everywhere else you look for the premill, pretrib view. Why is no one with this view writing about the coming persecution before the rapture? Because essentially they don't believe it is going to happen to them. Over and over again is quoted the Scripture that if it were not for God cutting short the days of the elect, none would survive as some sort of ticket out of persecution, yet that Scripture itself is a testimony to just how bad it will be for the elect. Dwight Pentecost is not the best anyway for the premill, pretrib view. He is nothing in comparison to his followers at Dallas like John Walvoord. Still I think Ray Summer is the best on Revelation and the end times. But to debunk your theory, unless you are a New Testament scholar you still read the NT through the eyes of someone else. You are still a sheep in need of a shepherd. That is why James told his hearers, "Let not many of you become teachers, my brothers, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgement." You can say all day that you know Scripture because you read it and the Holy Spirit confirms it, but we are all tainted with sin, even in our study of Scripture. Why do I put more trust in some seminary professors than others, because of their work in the Scriptures, their desire for truth and their willingness to admit they are wrong and change their position when that occurs. As a fellow sheep following other teachers, I think we should do the same. I think we will all be surprised one day to see what we thought we knew, but were following the lead of other who were wrong. I am not saying that to be arrogant as though I am right, I am saying that to say we should all be humble in what we think is right. The reason why I am writing these posts is to help others think outside their own boxes. If I am wrong, then we have nothing to worry about in American Christianity, but if the pre-trib guys are wrong, then several generations of Christians have been led astray and are waiting for an event that will never actualize. I think that is more dangerous that some of you are admitting it is. Lastly, Nominal Christians do believe in the rapture. In fact they have faith, just in an event and not in Christ. But of course I believe that the phrase nominal Christianity is an oxymoron. As Andrey has properly said, There is no salvation apart from Lordship.

So Church I exhort you to at least recognize that this rapture doctrine should be seen in light of a secondary event to the primary event of complete persecution engulfing the Church. Let us not write books about the signs of the apocalpse, let us write and read books about how to prepare for the last days of persecution and torture that will come about according to and by the will of God. The context of the NT was to those who were about to or were in the midst of experiencing intense persecution. Today the context is still the same. The question of Christ's millennial reign is up for grabs, but the question of persecution for the Church of Christ in America and every other nation is not. It will come, Will we be ready as a whole? Shouldn't we be getting ready, as well as getting our congregations and friends ready?

In Christ,
DR